Immigrants being sent back

[Kute]

My heart really hurts for all those people who are being deported in the US because of their illegal status. I read stories of people who have lived their whole lives in the U.S., (30+ years)  have careers, and children but have been sent back to nothing. Some are teens/adults that were born in Mexico and came to America as babies and dont even speak Spanish, but are being sent to live in Mexico. 

I understand both sides of the story and I am non-partisan, but as a sociology major and someone with a desire to help adolescents live better lives it is painful to see all this happening.

Everyone in America got here because their ancestors came as immigrants. How can it be right to deny people from having better quality of life if they want to have it by coming to the land of opportunity!  I feel my heart and mind lie more with the ethics than the politics of it all. 

Has this scare tactic for beefing up boarder security gone too far? What is your take on the situation ??? Could it have been dealt with differently? 

[ikids]

I feel like the whole beefed up security on the border was a political move to try and get democrats to bend on other issues.  Though it kind of backfired because even republicans think it has gone too far.

One thing though, I don't believe that immigrants who came as children have been sent back yet.  The Trump administration tried that, but courts shut it down and required DACA be continued for the time being without an end date set.  Same thing will likely happen with the current border issue.  It's definitely against international law, and most likely against U.S. law, so odds are it's going to get shut down as well.

[Kute]

7 hours ago, ikids said:

I feel like the whole beefed up security on the border was a political move to try and get democrats to bend on other issues.  Though it kind of backfired because even republicans think it has gone too far.

Yea I agree with that! exactly ! These are people here. Its sad to see them being used as an agenda.

[Duma]

To be honest, I think borders are silly. We're all just human. I don't really understand why there have to be different rules for different places. I mean, there have to be rules and I get that some people prefer A over B, but why should living -as a human being- be different here compared to the other side of the world. Why can't people just live where ever they want? Why is immigration so hard?

I do however agree with the fact that if you pick a place you have to abide to ALL the rules and you shouldn't try to force some of your own rules into your new country, if you don't agree with some major rules, pick another country to live in. Plenty of options. I also agree you need to be able to communicate, so learn the language if you're new. Sending people back to a far of country when they have been born and raised in your country is just wrong since they don't speak that other language well or at all. Especially for a political agenda that most likely will change again in a few years.

I know that the utopia of live where ever you want is impossible, some countries are more popular than others and you need to consider space and resources. Too crowded countries aren't fun to live in either. So yes, there has to be some sort of regulation, but that only applies to NEW people, and I guess that's why immigration is so hard in some countries. I do firmly agree that every one has the right to be happy!

[jellysundae]

14 hours ago, Kute said:

Everyone in America got here because their ancestors came as immigrants.

 

14 hours ago, ikids said:

I feel like the whole beefed up security on the border was a political move to try and get democrats to bend on other issues.

Original ideology never manages to hold up in the face of political agenda/profit.

Wow, a succinct summation from me!

Though I guess I could be pedantic and point out that not everyone in America came from outside. I don't want to derail the topic, but I am interested in how Native Americans are treated these days.

But this IS all agenda and scare tactics, isn't it. As a species we have a very wide range of behavioural options available to us, and right now we're seeing people being treated like cattle, that's pretty far into the negative scale but sadly not an at all unprecedented move by people in positions of power.

We, as humans create these problems ourselves. Partly by being stupid, and partly by being supremely horrible - so 100% by being human . . .

When I say stupid, I mean by us flouting what every other living thing does to survive, in this case working WITH its environment (amongst so many other things). We're the only living thing on the planet that intentionally lives in areas that can't sustain it, then intentionally moves to other areas that also can't sustain it . . .  and then we have the horrible;  yeah, our bigger brains have given us SO much scope for being the truly nastiest species, particularly when it comes to anyone who's not the same as us. I do realise this is the most basic of instincts - the survival instinct - kicking in, but, those bigger brains . . . those also gave us the means to develop empathy, kindness, ethics and morals. Or some of us at least. -__-

There's no neat and tidy fix for illegal immigration, is there. I'm all for dealing with the cause not the effect of a problem, but seeing as the grass roots cause of this is "being human" that's not exactly fixable. >_< I just wish people, ALL people, could be treated with integrity. But that appears to be something that's in short supply in today's world.

So I'll just say that any political position should only ever be obtained through meritocracy (any position for anyone in life to be honest!). It'd never happen because money and agendas, but I don't see the harm in wishful thinking.

[midnight_spell360]

It is just AWFUL and NOT right that the US government is ripping families apart. The fact that it was revealed that it was the President's goal since he took Office to put pressure on asylum seekers by removing their children is INHUMANE and WRONG! Let's be clear that the immigrants entering the US are seeking asylum and have to be physically present in the country they want to petition in order to start the process so the whole "their parents are to blame for bringing their kids here when they were entering illegally" is utter nonsense!

AND even IF that were the case, the law just states that they can fine the immigrants that entered illegally $100 (US) or punished with imprisonment for this misdemeanor. It doesn't state that families are to be separated, that was the President's own interpretation of the law, which wasn't carried out in such a cruel way before. Previously, the US government's past administration had opted to only rarely prosecute improper entry, especially when an individual is applying for asylum and almost always used its discretion not to separate children from their parents (so the "why are you complaining about it now bc this is exactly what the other guy was doing" argument is FALSE and stupid!).

The problem is that asylum seekers are now frequently being turned away before entering primary inspection and being told that they can not apply for asylum at that time and must come back later. Ultimately, asylum seekers may then decide to enter improperly so that they can apply for asylum once they have been picked up by Border Patrol. It's also notable that there are reports of asylum seekers legally presenting at Ports of Entry, but still are being separated.

Why are ppl crossing the border illegally with their children when it is so dangerous? The danger facing these ppl in their home countries are far worse than the dangers of crossing illegally. But don't worry, Jeff Sessions has announced that fleeing gang or domestic violence will no longer meet the requirements for applying for asylum.

What happens to the children being taken away from their parents?  Our current Administration has not created a good mechanism to reunite families.  There is a 1-800 number for parents to call. Wait times can be over an hour and if the parent does not know the child's A number, it may be impossible to trace the child. US toll free numbers don't always work outside the country, and still incur a fee when calling from outside the US. It is even possible that their child could have already been deported.

How can this be? Children can be deported without their parents? Yes, unfortunately they can. Once separated, children's cases are frequently severed from their parents, so parents and children do not process through the system concurrently. While parents may have a right to counsel for criminal prosecution, no such right exists in immigration proceedings. That crying toddler who's face you can't unsee? She may be expected to represent herself before an immigration judge. All funding to provide "unaccompanied" children with pro bono counsel has been recently cut.

I am proud of our Dallas, TX imam (religious leader, like a pastor) Omar Suleiman who went to McAllen, TX to try to stop a bus with the separated children from leaving the parking lot along with other brave ppl, the picture is heart-breaking as he placed his hand on the window to the small separated child's hand for as long as he could. 

Where is our humanity? Where is our mercy? God help us that anyone can be ok with being this cruel to children!

 

  www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/imam-reveals-story-behind-haunting-image-border-processing-facility-n886201

Edited June 25, 2018 by midnight_spell360
Putting in the Imam's picture

[jellysundae]

I saw something on the news about how some US airlines are refusing to fly immigrant children separated from their parents, and good for them!

I guess it's mainly down to the size of the company, if they feel they're big enough to be able to stand up against the government and possible (highly likely?) retaliation . . .

[midnight_spell360]

3 hours ago, jellysundae said:

So I'll just say that any political position should only ever be obtained through meritocracy (any position for anyone in life to be honest!). It'd never happen because money and agendas, but I don't see the harm in wishful thinking.

Exactly! Follow the money trail! There has been a rise in profits for private prison companies, such as Geo Group and CoreCivic-these alone handle 60% of detaining the current immigrant population. One firm is reported to have made $43 million on transporting unaccompanied minors since Sept. 2017. Over $2 billion has been funneled from our government to private prisons, so that those executives are thrilled with the President's crackdown on immigration (zero tolerance) touting that the current situation is "good for business"! As the private prison stocks rise, don't forget that bc they are privately owned and have NO incentive to care for and meet the needs of the immigrants placed in their facilities AND are not being monitored in any way so that we have no idea what is going on behind closed doors. And of course, those private prison Executives continue to fund the current President's re-election, keep close ties by hiring former Troll Aides, and hold events at Troll's golf courses. 

Did we ever think that money wasn't involved? Makes me sick!!!!

[jellysundae]

1 hour ago, midnight_spell360 said:

Did we ever think that money wasn't involved? Makes me sick!!!!

I don't suppose anyone with their head on straight ever did. But when a disreputable businessman is put in the prime position of power, what else did people expect.

[Kute]

@Duma I love your perspective of this. I wish everything could be this simple. 

@jellysundae Its funny that you brought up native americans. I am partially native american but mostly white. And I joked, because I saw on the news that immigrants were now being placed in camps... T____T( CAMPS? !)  That maybe the natives should get together and put the whites in camps since theyre the ones who trespassed first. 

@midnight_spell360 youre very knowledgable, I like the depth of your response. I did see on the news the protestors at the bus full of children in Texas!  I sort of wish I could be there, but i feel so helpless. I feel that these people are just numbers to those who are interested in the money. Do they even care? Only because America is pressuring them and calling them out! 

[jellysundae]

48 minutes ago, Kute said:

@jellysundae Its funny that you brought up native americans. I am partially native american but mostly white. And I joked, because I saw on the news that immigrants were now being placed in camps... T____T( CAMPS? !)  That maybe the natives should get together and put the whites in camps since theyre the ones who trespassed first. 

Wellll . . . going by what's been happening re: people being deported who have lived in the US for 30 years, etc. It doesn't seem unfeasible to deport absolutely EVERYONE who came to America without an invite, from the Pilgrim Fathers onwards . . .

So your family's been living here for 400 years? But your Great Great Great Great Great etc. Grandfather was an illegal immigrant!  So clear off back where you came from!!

THOUGH, as Boston is just 16 miles down the road from me, I'm not advocating them all coming home right here. 

[sharkradio]

i honestly cant believe im seeing this in america today, its downright scary. history is a lesson, NOT a model. you should check out those tent cities, they are LEVELS beyond.

[jellysundae]

It's frightening isn't it, how quickly forward progress can be reversed, and how seemingly little people can do about it, it's the helpless feeling that really gets to you. Right now it's like the 8 years of the previous administration never happened. : /

I firmly believe that Trump attaining the White House was a direct backlash to Obama, which is just the saddest thing on earth. But it seems pretty clear that enough of America's population was so unhappy at having a black president that they voted in a monster in retaliation. I guess it didn't help that their only real alternative option was a woman *sigh* That's maybe even sadder; the fact that if Hillary had been a man Trump might not have got in, but no, the bigots who hated having a black president definitely wouldn't have wanted a woman in his place. -__-

[midnight_spell360]

Trying to urge my family to attend a march on July 4th. Has anyone else participated in protests or donated time or money to help these kids? Just wondering, not judging....:) 

Take this quiz to see if you really know what's going on at the border:

https://quiz.moveon.org/qs/keep-families-together/?source=fb.ads.quiz.borderknow.s.st2.th2.a1.qu_1

Edited July 3, 2018 by midnight_spell360
Added quiz

[jellysundae]

Just how much public protest is going on in the US about this ? I'm aware it is happening, but I've no idea to what extent.

[Musical_Shoyru]

This is definitely a hard subject for me because although I hate seeing so many people being separated from their family the law is the law. Coming over illegally is still not the right way things should be done, now do I agree that it should be easier to come over legally, absolutely! 

My thing on it is time shouldn't be a factor if the law is broken. I mean is someone killed someone 30 years ago and someone just now found out about it should they not be persecuted, or made to right the wrongs?

Making money is very hard for some people, but does that mean they should steal because it's an easier way? No of course not, trust me I learned this the hard way.

Again I'm very hurt for those people hurting and I'm not ignoring the fact that this can be a pretty awful thing to go through, but I'm also not ignorant to the fact that laws have been being broken freely and openly for a LONG time

 

[jellysundae]

2 hours ago, Musical_Shoyru said:

My thing on it is time shouldn't be a factor if the law is broken. I mean is someone killed someone 30 years ago and someone just now found out about it should they not be persecuted, or made to right the wrongs? 

I'm very ignorant about this, but isn't there no statute of limitations on murder?

I do think it's wrong that people can basically get away with certain crimes if enough time has passed, but I think the tide is turning there, though not for the right reasons. In this country we've had plenty of assault charges made against celebrities for things that happened in the 70s and 80s, after stuff came to light about Jimmy Saville after his death. People then started coming out of the woodwork making claims about a number of other DJs and it really smacked of people seeing it as a way of making a quick buck by selling their story to the papers. Some girl who got her bottom felt by the DJ presenter during the filming of Top of the Pops in the 80s, and undoubtedly bragged to all her friends about it afterwards, NOW starts shrieking about "assault"...

But court cases have happened because of these allegations, despite them being things that happened 30+ years ago, and Nazi war criminals go on trial, so in some cases at least crimes do not go unpunished, no matter how long ago they happened.

This business with the children is so very horrible though, I think it highlights the fact that the law is CRUEL. It treats people like things when they're on the wrong side of it.

[Vlagopus]

@Musical_Shoyru I think you make a good point that crimes committed a long time ago should not be unpunished simply because it happened a long time ago. However there are two limbs to common law - case law and equity. I'm not familiar with the American legal system, but the general principle is that although the law should be followed, and is, in many cases, absolute, the courts do have power, to a certain degree, to interpret laws in a way that is as fair as possible, and to ensure it does not lead to absurdity.

My heart goes out to the families that are being ripped apart. One can say "the law is the law", and I can't argue it's incorrect, but I'm of the opinion that it's not fair, and probably not the intention of the lawmakers, to send people, American or otherwise, to countries where they haven't been in for decades, countries where they have no claim to any property or even identity, and maybe even countries whose language they don't speak. If a child were not born in America, but brought into the country as an infant by their parents, are they not innocent third parties? Should the law seek to punish them when they had no control over their entry into America?

From a social perspective, although such policy may discourage future illegal immigrants, I believe the price America has to pay would be high. When/ if the parents are sent back, and if the children are left behind, who will take care of them? What are their chances of growing up healthily? Their chances of being integrated into the society as a productive member?

When the enforcement of a law is going to affect a whole generation of people of a particular group, the government ought to be careful. It is also harmful to the society as a whole to promote an "us vs them" concept between Americans and illegal immigrants, or distribute divisive messages as the President often does. Unfortunately, I have no real insight into how the issue of illegal immigration should be handled, or even how a more effective/ easier immigration policy could be implemented.

@jellysundae In the UK, there are no statue of limitations on criminal matters (with the exception of summary offence). As for other areas of law such as contract, tort and personal injury etc., see Limitation Act 1980. I'm not sure which countries it differs from and how.

(The above content is not intended to amount to advice on which you should rely. I make no representations, warranties or guarantees, express or implied, that the content is accurate or complete.)

[spurdy777]

On 6/24/2018 at 2:16 PM, ikids said:

I feel like the whole beefed up security on the border was a political move to try and get democrats to bend on other issues.  Though it kind of backfired because even republicans think it has gone too far.

One thing though, I don't believe that immigrants who came as children have been sent back yet.  The Trump administration tried that, but courts shut it down and required DACA be continued for the time being without an end date set.  Same thing will likely happen with the current border issue.  It's definitely against international law, and most likely against U.S. law, so odds are it's going to get shut down as well.

Actually, the US has been deporting adults that came over as children and infants ,for decades...just under different circumstances.  I happen to have a friend who is an immigrant that came over with his parents when he was 3 months old.  He developed a drug problem in the US as an adult and ended up with a drug felony. He was deported. He had never even been to Mexico before and his entire family was here in the US. He was lucky he worked with someone who migrated back and forth across the border for work and he took him in,otherwise he would have had no one. Deportation has always been a thing...and the US has never empathized with personal circumstance. People think Trump hates Mexicans but he's just not very good at communicating his reasoning. Higher border security is needed to discourage illegal immigration because immigrants are killing themselves and their children using illegal passageways to the US. Anyone can become a citizen of the US safely and legally ,so the body count at the border is unnecessary and caused by impatience,recklessness and irresponsible behavior by the immigrants. 

It is not realistic to think that everything would be fine if we just opened up our borders to everyone. We have enemies that have vowed to destroy our nation. We need to regulate what goes in and out to maintain our health status,otherwise we would just become another 3rd world country battling disease in an overpopulated country. I could go on and on with reasons we need to monitor our borders..but you get the idea. Just one group of immigrants carrying some ancient , contagious disease or infested with foreign insects or parasites ,is all it would take to cause devastation.

 

[ikids]

On 4/7/2019 at 4:14 PM, spurdy777 said:

Actually, the US has been deporting adults that came over as children and infants ,for decades...just under different circumstances.  I happen to have a friend who is an immigrant that came over with his parents when he was 3 months old.  He developed a drug problem in the US as an adult and ended up with a drug felony. He was deported. He had never even been to Mexico before and his entire family was here in the US. He was lucky he worked with someone who migrated back and forth across the border for work and he took him in,otherwise he would have had no one. Deportation has always been a thing...and the US has never empathized with personal circumstance. People think Trump hates Mexicans but he's just not very good at communicating his reasoning. Higher border security is needed to discourage illegal immigration because immigrants are killing themselves and their children using illegal passageways to the US. Anyone can become a citizen of the US safely and legally ,so the body count at the border is unnecessary and caused by impatience,recklessness and irresponsible behavior by the immigrants. 

It is not realistic to think that everything would be fine if we just opened up our borders to everyone. We have enemies that have vowed to destroy our nation. We need to regulate what goes in and out to maintain our health status,otherwise we would just become another 3rd world country battling disease in an overpopulated country. I could go on and on with reasons we need to monitor our borders..but you get the idea. Just one group of immigrants carrying some ancient , contagious disease or infested with foreign insects or parasites ,is all it would take to cause devastation.

 

Bit of a necro lol  But I was speaking about DACA which have not been sent back.  Anyone with a felony conviction is automatically removed from DACA.

As for people dying, roughly 350 people die per year on their journey into the U.S. since 1998.  This is way larger than it should ever be, but it is still far safer than for most of the people attempting to come here.  The majority of the people who have been applying for asylum are doing so because of violence in their country of origin.  While it's certainly not a safe journey, the odds of dying are extremely low, compared with staying in their home country.

The idea that anyone can become a citizen of the U.S. safely and legally simply isn't true.  It's extremely difficult to become a citizen if you are not already wealthy and/or have immediate family who are citizens in the U.S. (though Trump has cut this means of becoming a citizen in half since taking office).  It is an extremely long, extremely expensive process, and the vast majority of people who apply never make it in.

As for diseases, there's a far greater chance of someone visiting a foreign country and bringing a disease back than there is of someone immigrating to the U.S. and bringing a disease.  Most of these countries have higher vaccination rates than large swaths of the U.S. for example.  There's a reason why all of the outbreaks in the U.S. have been traced back to U.S. citizens traveling abroad, and not from immigrants bringing diseases with them.