"Gypsy" Items.

[Lady Lyuba]

Recently I have learned that the word "gypsy" is a racial slur on par with the n-word. It is therefore a bad word and should not be uttered. And Neopets unfortunately has a lot of gypsy-related items and wearables, portraying the stereotypical Hollywood gypsy - thus an offensive ethnic costume. I am not saying these items should be removed, but at least renamed. Neopets should have the g-word removed from the site, because it is as offensive to Romani people as the n-word is to African American people, the r-word to the mentally disabled, and the f-word to LGBT people.

 

The fact that the items still remain as they are shows that either TNT is unaware of this offense, or they just don't care. All I know is if they keep this up, keep the items as they are named, and keep making more g-word wearables, they will continue to lose all players of Romani ethnicity if they haven't already.

 

I just want to bring this to your attention and spread some awareness. The more aware we are, the more we may be able to do something about it.

[slavecrown]

I don't know how it is in Europe or the rest of the world, but in America it isn't widely known that "gypsy" is a a derogatory term for Roma (and I've had a lot of people roll their eyes upon being told, as if being respectful to other cultures is such a huge inconvenience). TNT is probably unaware that it's a slur. Personally, I just sigh when I see the items on the site - it's offensive, but not as bad as white people throwing on long skirts and bangles and calling themselves "Gypsy Lilly" and what have you. I would appreciate it if they changed the items, but I don't expect it to happen anytime soon.

[Sara_1]

I don't know how it is in Europe or the rest of the world, but in America it isn't widely known that "gypsy" is a a derogatory term for Roma (and I've had a lot of people roll their eyes upon being told, as if being respectful to other cultures is such a huge inconvenience). TNT is probably unaware that it's a slur. Personally, I just sigh when I see the items on the site - it's offensive, but not as bad as white people throwing on long skirts and bangles and calling themselves "Gypsy Lilly" and what have you. I would appreciate it if they changed the items, but I don't expect it to happen anytime soon.

I wasn't aware that Gypsy was a slur, especially since it isn't specifically limited to Romani and typically if we call someone a gypsy, we are refering to the fact that the person moves a lot or doesn't stay in one place long. The background of which I am sure isn't pleasant. I mean I guess I can say that for every American but as far as I am concerned, I was completely ignorant of it.

 

All I've had to go on were movies, that most likely did not accurately depict those people but I've never seen it used in the same context as other derogetory terms, which may be to blame for some of the ignorance.

 

But I agree with the fact that TNT most likely won't do anything about it because there probably isn't enough of an outcry to bring it to their attention. Their attitude is most likely that if they had to change every little thing that offended everyone they wouldn't be able to name anything. :/

[Angeló]

The word Gypsy itself isn't a slur .. just like the word Negro simply means Black in Spanish, however , its how it's used is the problem .. if it's used in a derogatory fashion then yes it's a slur. The word Gypsy is derived from Egyptian , which is where gypsies were originally thought to come from. Not all Gypsies are Romani , btw ... I think Gypsies are very beautiful and they are such free spirits. I met some of them in Spain and in the Balkan ... so in conclusion I think it's how you use the word is insulting , not the word itself ...

 

HOWEVER . I DO AGREE with you that some Neopian items can be insensitive .. not all GYPSIES ride carts and play tambourine anymore .. and Egyptians dont live in tents , sell daggers and worship the pyramids anymore [Qasala] .. etc etc .. but Neopia's a fantasy world where things exist in their fantasy / romantic aspect ... thousands of years in the past , obviously ... i mean look at the court dancer , sh's mostly inspired by Victor Hugo's Esmeralda ...

[leverhelven]

I was aware that "gypsy" is a derogatory term. I once studied about a protest that happened in the US against the name of a certain species of moth, the vulgarly-known Gypsy Moth. To this day many Roma people take offense to the species name for the use of the word gypsy.

 

On the other hand I can somewhat understand Neopets being full of cliches. It's intended for kids, and that's what their imagination is about. The desert? Oooooh, Egypt, pyramids, tents! The exotic island? Oooh, tikis, masks, tribal stuff! Even Faerieland can be kind of problematic if you think it's mainly pink and purple - because apparently faeries are "girl stuff" and pink/purple are "girl colors".

 

So... yeah.

[fullonparanoid]

The place I see Gypsy most often used (unknowingly) as a slur...is when someone says they were 'gyped' (swindled, fooled, stolen from). The word is a DIRECT reference to gypsies and suggests that they are all conniving thieves.

 

People use 'gyped', 'jipped', 'gipped', alllll the time and don't even realize what the etymology of the word is.

 

But, yes, as with the Washington Redskins...I believe it is important to listen to the people involved (in that case, American Indians) when deciding what a descriptor means.

 

If Roma (the people most often referred to as gypsies) say that 'Gypsy' is insulting and derogatory...then in my book it is.

If American Indians feel that 'Redskins' is insulting and derogatory...then in my book it is.

 

Why should anyone else get to tell them what the word means or how it should make them feel?

 

It seems to me that using such words are harmful to them.

How hard is it to find other words to use that do not harm anyone?

Why do some get SOOOO bent out of shape when they are asked not to use words that harm others?

 

/shakes head

[Songbirdsara]

I feel like there are other words that could be utilized to express the same concept... especially since Neopets mostly uses Gypsy for items with a "Bohemian" or "fortune-teller" look. I mean, tell me that a "Gypsy Chia Skirt" couldn't easily become "Bohemian Chia Skirt". "Gypsy Maps" becomes "Nomad Maps", etc. *Shrug*

[SillySilenia]

I feel like there are other words that could be utilized to express the same concept... especially since Neopets mostly uses Gypsy for items with a "Bohemian" or "fortune-teller" look. I mean, tell me that a "Gypsy Chia Skirt" couldn't easily become "Bohemian Chia Skirt". "Gypsy Maps" becomes "Nomad Maps", etc. *Shrug*

Bohemian does also have some mild negative connotations, though. "This term would later be adapted by the French to refer to a particular artistic and impoverished lifestyle of an individual, known as Bohemianism." (Emphasis mine)

 

Slavecrown, I would say that there is slightly more awareness in Europe, but that would be a mixture of 1. the way the Roma/Sinti were targeted by the Nazis in WWII and 2. the fact that the European equivalents (across the various languages) of "gypsy" are even more derogatory in its base meaning.

"Gypsy" comes, speaking from an etymological point of view, from "Egypcian", based on the false belief in England at the time (early 16th century) that the Romani originated from Egypt. Blatantly wrong, but not necessarily offensive on its own, though it does portray ignorance.

 

Most of the other European languages, however, use words that are in some form derived from the (later) Byzantine Greek atsinganoi (ἀτσίγγανοι), originally ἀθίγγανοι, athinganoi, or the Latin form of it (adsincani, more-or-less a transliteration of the Greek word), which means untouchables.

[Shane for Wax]

My brother (blood brother, not birth) is of Roma descent so I have no choice but to wince every time I have to go to the 'g*psy camp' on Neopets as well as the fact that many items have that word in it.

 

While we're on the subject, russki and uki/ukey are also slurs against Russians and Ukrainians respectively. The Ukraine, where my mother is from, lost a fair chunk of its population during world war 2 because 1) both Hitler and Stalin hated ethnic Ukrainians because they were Caucasian (which, contrary to popular belief is not a synonym for white at all. The Caucasus region makes up a good portion of the 'middle east' and thus most Caucasians aren't really white at all), 2) a large Jewish population 3) a large Roma population. 4) ukrainians are also slavs and Hitler hated slavs as well.

 

It's unfortunate Neopets apparently has never heard that g*psy is a slur. It's been more than a decade, someone or multiple someones must have sent Neopets messages about it.

 

Something to put up with, I suppose, if you are old enough to understand and know about the g-slur.

[TheNeonHyena]

Oh man, this reminds me of something that happened kind of recently. There was a group in my area that was doing a "gypsy camp" thing, sort of like a renaissance faire, but actually really offensive. They didn't even realize that they were perpetuating a really awful stereotype. They had some wagons and would set up a camp at local fairgrounds and sell homemade crafts or whatever, dressed in the long skirts and huge bangles. Some of the men's costumes were even worse because they were so obviously characterizing the whole idea.

 

Anyway, they did it all summer long and I'm pretty sure they're probably going to do it again next year. I've sent them a letter, perhaps we should all start sending more complaints to Neopets.

 

I mean, nothing changes unless people start talking about it. If enough of their users complain they really have no choice but to change it.

[siniri]

As soon as I learned the origin of the word "gyp" (in high school, thanks to a letter to Ann Landers teaching her what the term meant, I think), I stopped using it. Has anyone submitted a ticket about this to TNT? Or maybe even an editorial question? They really should change the names of the items; it wouldn't be that hard.

 

I agree with fullonparanoid; if someone tells you something is offensive, you should find another way to say it. There are hundreds of thousands of words in the English language; it's not that hard. It doesn't even matter if some people are okay with a term; if you're not part of the group and some of them find it offensive, don't use that word.

 

Sure, in the U.S., most people haven't been exposed to Romani, so they're ignorant of the connotations. But Neopets is an international site, so they need to be aware of the connotations of the word in Europe.

 

Out of curiosity, what word do they use in other languages? I tried the SW, but it didn't work when I refreshed after changing to French. Oh! But the HW map shows "Le Camp Tzigane." Which according to Wiktionary is also "sometimes offensive." (Meaning that people don't mean to be, but offend people anyway... I guess they think if you use an ethnic slur and no one of that ethnic group is around to hear it, it doesn't count? I disagree.)

[SillySilenia]

As soon as I learned the origin of the word "gyp" (in high school, thanks to a letter to Ann Landers teaching her what the term meant, I think), I stopped using it. Has anyone submitted a ticket about this to TNT? Or maybe even an editorial question? They really should change the names of the items; it wouldn't be that hard.

 

I agree with fullonparanoid; if someone tells you something is offensive, you should find another way to say it. There are hundreds of thousands of words in the English language; it's not that hard. It doesn't even matter if some people are okay with a term; if you're not part of the group and some of them find it offensive, don't use that word.

 

Sure, in the U.S., most people haven't been exposed to Romani, so they're ignorant of the connotations. But Neopets is an international site, so they need to be aware of the connotations of the word in Europe.

 

Out of curiosity, what word do they use in other languages? I tried the SW, but it didn't work when I refreshed after changing to French. Oh! But the HW map shows "Le Camp Tzigane." Which according to Wiktionary is also "sometimes offensive." (Meaning that people don't mean to be, but offend people anyway... I guess they think if you use an ethnic slur and no one of that ethnic group is around to hear it, it doesn't count? I disagree.)

Mostly words derived from Atsinganoi.

Zigeuner in German and Dutch, Sigøjnere in Danish (near-exact same pronunciation as in German, I think), Sigøynere in Bokmål Norwegian, Sigøynarar in Nynorsk Norwegian, Zigenare in Swedish.

Cigáni in Slovene and Slovak, Cigani in Serbo-Croatian, Cyganie in Polish and Cikáni in Czech.

Цигани (transliteration would be Cigani, I believe) in Macedonian, Bulgarian and Ukrainian, цыгане (transliteration roughly cygane) in Russian and Belarusian.

Cigano in Portuguese, Gitano in Spanish, French has a whole bunch of words including Gitans and Tziganes, Italian would be Zingari.

Čigāni in Latvian, Čigonai in Lithuanian, cigány in Magyar (Hungarian), Çingene/Çigan in Turkish.

[siniri]

Sorry, I meant what word do they use to translate it on the site. I found it in French, and it was the offensive one. Which means that Neopets' French team is also either unaware or just doesn't care.

[SillySilenia]

Sorry, I meant what word do they use to translate it on the site. I found it in French, and it was the offensive one. Which means that Neopets' French team is also either unaware or just doesn't care.

No problem. Dutch uses zigeuner, Portuguese uses cigano, Italian uses Zingari and Spanish uses gitaro. =/

 

German uses Bohemen, but "Zigeuner" in German is several degrees more offensive than in Dutch due to WWII and associations with the Nazi-regime, so it would have surprised me in a very bad way if they had used it.

[Secre]

Gypsy is actually a legal term under English law...so yes, it may have been used as a racial slur by groups it is by no means on par with the 'n-word'. As someone once put it, if it was you wouldn't have said it in the first place. But whilst the term has a place in English law (not sure about American law) I certainly wouldn't be willing to ask the Neopets Team to remove the word.

[SillySilenia]

Something being a legal term does not exclude it from being derogatory or a slur, Secre, and something being a legal term in one country most certainly does not exclude it from being a slur in others. Something having a literal meaning that is not derogatory or a slur does not prevent it from being one, either; after all, the "n-word" is based on negro, which simply means black. Yet calling someone black or calling someone by the slur derived from it that technically has the same translation doesn't quite have the same meaning.

 

As to whether or not it's on par with the "n-word", that's not something that can be derived solely from whether or not one is willing to spell it out in full.The reason that the "n-word" is now commonly referred to as such, rather than spelled out, is in serious part a result of many awareness campaigns and because the oppression and discrimination against that particular minority is both more well-known and better documented. Just because fewer people realize that "gypsy" is offensive does not mean it is also less offensive. Just because goodness knows how many people are unaware of how much the Roma and Sinti have been oppressed and discriminated against does not mean that it didn't happen.

 

Beyond that, the tradition of referring to certain words as x-word, with "x" replaced by the first letter of said word, is not a tradition that is equally strong in all areas. Where I come from (the Netherlands), that is not the way we handle slurs. It is the use of a word and its meaning that is offensive, not a particular bunch of letters in a particular order on its own. As a result, it's far more common to invoke a use a use-mention distinction, either by outright saying something like the word so-and-so, or by putting it in quotation marks, making clear we are not using the word, but referring to/mentioning it. In other cases, the sentence itself shows clear signs one is referring to the word without having to spell it out full. In a sentence like "Gypsy is offensive", it is pretty clear on its own that it's the word that's meant to be offensive, not the Roma/Sinti themselves.

 

Is the word gypsy on par with the "n-word"? Perhaps. Perhaps not. That's something only the Roma/Sinti can decide.

 

Is it considered offensive by a large amount of them, though? Yes. Are there other terms for them that are either not considered offensive, or at least far less so? Yes. Would it then hurt anything to use one of those words? Hardly. Well, TNT may have to spend a few minutes using search-and-replace, but that's it.

[marthaclark]

I think this is a very interesting debate, and I also believe that Neopets would be wise to remove the term.

 

It has been used in a derogatory way in many parts of the world, but to counter what Secre said - the reason it is written into English law is because of the ethnic minority in the UK & Ireland who identity as gypsies. For example, some Irish Travellers would identify as gypsies. That said, I'm also aware that others do not like being associated with that term and would rather be referred to as travellers. I once knew a woman who identified as a gypsy but liked to differentiate between the two.

 

The main clear cut thing in this situation is that it should be for the group in question to reclaim ownership of the word and decide how they want (or don't want) it used.

 

At the end of the day, if people are uncomfortable with how a word has been used against them, it is best to err on the side of caution and just not use it.

 

I think this is especially true with a game that is mainly directed towards children - it's not really appropriate to trivialise or parody an ethnic minority, especially one with such a complicated history. Children pick up more than we realise and it sends mixed messages to children (and adults) who will continue to use and misuse the term without reflecting upon the offence it could cause.

 

Better to just rename the items.

[brynchilla]

I would first like to thank everyone for their maturity on this topic. Many people (myself included) have admitted to not knowing that 'Gypsy' was slang, degrading and should not be used. Thank-you for not being rude about not knowing, and instead educating.

 

As in regards to changing the name of the item, I do know it is possible. When the Stealthy color came out, there were a few species specific wearables that had 'stealthy' in their name, and TNT changed it to 'ninja'. So not being able to change it is not an excuse.

 

We have to remember that other people cannot tell others when they can and cannot be offended. They are not allowed to define what is and isn't racist, or in this case.. well, I'm not sure what the proper word for it would be. (Would it still be racist?) If someone thinks something is offensive, then we should respect it and do our best to avoid using whatever word or term it was that offends them.

[1_groovychick]

Very well said Brynchilla!

I have absolutely NO idea that it was a offensive word. I've often used it myself to describe my wondering tendencies! I agree that if it is that offensive to people that neopets should make every effort to remove it.

[brynchilla]

So we've come to the conclusion that this word is offensive.

Now the question is, does TNT think there are enough people who are against it to make it a problem.

If not enough people have spoken up about it, they might not think it's a big enough deal to change it.

 

Take Nintendo, for instance. They produce 3DS, and it recently had an update that made on of the provided services unusable. They know about it, but currently think (or at least did, I haven't check on it in a while) that there are not enough people who are bothered by it, so they haven't bothered to fix it.

 

so yes, it may have been used as a racial slur by groups it is by no means on par with the 'n-word'

 

It's your opinion that is not as offensive as that word. To the people who it applies to, however, it could be. (As well as other people whom it does not apply to.)

[hrtbrk]

Maybe no one spoke up about it because it's not that big of a deal to them? Unless a giant group of Romani people are protesting this to be removed from Neopets, I don't think this should even be a discussion of removal because it's not our place. You may be fighting a fight that doesn't even exist. Nothing worse than speaking on other peoples behalf over an issue that may not be as impacting as you are assuming. If everything was removed because a random group of people deemed it inappropriate, well, nothing would exist lol

 

Moreover, the word "gypsy" has evolved and the culture vastly has changed over the past 15 years or so. There are millions of people all over the world who identify them selves as a gypsy and are proud of it; I know a few of them myself. (Not saying this diminishes the history but it's true. There are likely proud gypsy people who use Neopets.)

 

We have to keep in mind that just because you are offended, doesn't mean you're in the right - and it doesn't mean Neopets is wrong either.

[brynchilla]

Have you ever heard of the quote by Pastor Martin Neimoller?

 

"First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.

Then, they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then, they came for the Protestants and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Protestant.

And then they came for me, and by that time, there was no one left to speak up for me."

 

It's in our best interests to look out for other people, because there's a chance it will eventually trickle down to us.

Just because there are people who do not think it is offensive, that does not mean everyone does.

And to say that someone should stop protesting for something just because you think something is not offensive is wrong.

 

It's not just 'any random word'. The word in question has a negative history. They're not going to remove items just because someone doesn't like the word 'green.'

(I'm not saying that people don't have the right to be offended over it. If they want to, it's their choice.)

 

People don't have the right to tell someone else that they cannot be offended by something. You do not govern how I feel.

[Anime]

No one said you couldn't be offended. As you said, no one else can dictate how you feel about something. What hrtbrk was saying is that we (as people who are not considered gypsies in any sense, positive or negative) have no real way of knowing if the way it is used here would be considered offensive to the people that the term as a slur is leveled at.

 

It's good to stand up to help people in need. This issue here is that we don't know if there is a need. The quote you provided, each of those groups was under a direct and clear threat. In that case, yes, it would be wrong to not stand up for them. But if you look at a topic like this, and then decide that something needs to be done when there is no obvious threat or danger to people's lives or livelihoods, and there is no input from people who are actually subject to the term as to if the use of it is acceptable or offensive or not, then you're simply putting words in their mouths.

 

It could be that the actual group of people would or do find this offensive, or it could be that they don't care, or it could even be the case that they like it! We have no way of knowing. And without input from those it actually affects, we have no way of knowing what the correct course of action is, be it having the items renamed, or removed, or otherwise adjusted.

 

So while it is good to be aware of these things, and definitely poor form to call someone a gypsy at random, we have no way of knowing what the correct course of action is. In a situation like this, where there is no threat of direct harm to people, it is better to wait until those who are affected by the term speak up than to go out and do something in their name without their say.

 

Does that mean you should just be quiet about it? Of course not! Being aware, and letting others know, and perhaps even trying to find people of Romani descent (or other applicable ethnicities) to get their input are all things that can be done that can have very positive results! But rushing out without knowing the thoughts of those actually affected is far more likely to end poorly at best.

[hrtbrk]

You have every right to think the word is in bad taste on Neopets and the world. That's not what I'm trying to say. What I am saying is that if the Romani Neopets users have not had any problems with the word for the past 15 years, we likely shouldn't take it upon ourselves to call for it to be removed. It's not our place to come and speak on their behalf because they can speak for themselves.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd but Anime. Listen to her. lol

[SillySilenia]

Maybe no one spoke up about it because it's not that big of a deal to them? Unless a giant group of Romani people are protesting this to be removed from Neopets, I don't think this should even be a discussion of removal because it's not our place. You may be fighting a fight that doesn't even exist. Nothing worse than speaking on other peoples behalf over an issue that may not be as impacting as you are assuming. If everything was removed because a random group of people deemed it inappropriate, well, nothing would exist lol

 

Moreover, the word "gypsy" has evolved and the culture vastly has changed over the past 15 years or so. There are millions of people all over the world who identify them selves as a gypsy and are proud of it; I know a few of them myself. (Not saying this diminishes the history but it's true. There are likely proud gypsy people who use Neopets.)

 

We have to keep in mind that just because you are offended, doesn't mean you're in the right - and it doesn't mean Neopets is wrong either.

While it is undoubtedly true that in the end, it should be the insiders' views, not that of outsiders, that decides whether or not something is offensive, it is pretty well-documented that the word Gypsy is considered offensive by a good portion of the Romani people.

(http://helloimlulu.tumblr.com/Romani, http://tooyoungforthelivingdead.tumblr.com/post/43718585528/terminology, http://clarenecessities.tumblr.com/post/92881373312/the-problem-with-the-word-gypsy, http://chirikli.tumblr.com/post/52961951932/its-a-slur-a-rromani-womans-thoughts-on-the, to give just a few sources by Romani).

 

While, as you say, there certainly are proud gypsies and self-identifying gypsies of both Romani and non-Romani descent (although in the latter case, I do wonder if they are aware that most Romani consider the term to be offensive), what makes the case on Neopets all the more painful is that the word Gypsy is used in combination with what pretty much is the classic stereotyping of the Romani.

Here's a Romani source that specifically points out the use of gypsy and said stereotyping on Neopets: http://rroma-in-art.tumblr.com/post/96734404486/this-isnt-technically-art-but-it-has-come-to-my. Although they do not technically speak out against the word "gypsy" in the body of said text, the tagging of the post with "slur" is clear enough.

Here's a response to that post that shows said post's writer isn't exactly the only one bothered by it: http://dragon-well.tumblr.com/post/103473422995/rroma-in-art-this-isnt-technically-art-but-it

And another source, where the part relevant to Neopets/this discussion is specifically about the word gypsy: http://tealrallythong.tumblr.com/tagged/now-if-only-neopets-stopped-using-it (a bit more subtle in its reference to Neopets, but please look at the post's tagging and its url)

 

P.S./EDIT: By the way, it's not particularly relevant if Neopian Romani are offended by Neopets' use of the word Gypsy, but if Romani in general are. Much as it may sometimes seem otherwise, there are still kids and teenagers playing Neopets, and if they learn to associate "gypsy" with the stereotypical depiction of Romani and furthermore, learn that gypsy is an acceptable word, it is not just the Neopian Romani that will have to deal with their ignorant use of a slur later, is it?

 

As to the "gypsy lifestyle", most Romani don't seem particularly fond of that one, either. Which makes sense. Let's compare it with other minorities that frequently are stereotyped and have slurs used against them. If someone took, say, some aspects of the stereotypical Hollywood flamboyant gay man and called it the "f*gg*t lifestyle", how d'you figure the LGBT-community would react? Not particularly favorable, no? Now say this becomes a bit of trend. Would that make it okay for sites ten years or so later to start using the f-word to describe a stereotypical depiction of a flamboyant gay man because the meaning "has changed through the years and now includes said lifestyle"?

 

Remember... slurs can only be reclaimed by the group(s) they were actually used against.