"Gypsy" Items.

[Songbirdsara]

I agree with SillySilenia. In the end, it's not really whether we (a clearly fairly teen/adult slanted group playing and debating this game for fun) are or are not offended. In the end, the utilization of a word with such negative connotations in a children's game perpetuates the idea in the minds of these kids that this word is acceptable in normal speech. The fact that the word "gypped" has stayed in our language this long illustrates that the plight of the Romani people is not something really understood in American/English culture. For example, there was a similar term used to imply theft/con-artist type behaviour that was prevalent in my mom's college time ("Jewed"). I think we can all agree that it's a terrible word capitalizing on horrible stereotypes! Why not the same gut-check horror at the word "gypped"? I think the argument for removal of the word kind of boils down to - if you risk offending/alienating one child, it's not really worth keeping the term in a children's game.

[brynchilla]

No one said you couldn't be offended. As you said, no one else can dictate how you feel about something. What hrtbrk was saying is that we (as people who are not considered gypsies in any sense, positive or negative) have no real way of knowing if the way it is used here would be considered offensive to the people that the term as a slur is leveled at.

 

It's good to stand up to help people in need. This issue here is that we don't know if there is a need. The quote you provided, each of those groups was under a direct and clear threat. In that case, yes, it would be wrong to not stand up for them. But if you look at a topic like this, and then decide that something needs to be done when there is no obvious threat or danger to people's lives or livelihoods, and there is no input from people who are actually subject to the term as to if the use of it is acceptable or offensive or not, then you're simply putting words in their mouths.

 

It could be that the actual group of people would or do find this offensive, or it could be that they don't care, or it could even be the case that they like it! We have no way of knowing. And without input from those it actually affects, we have no way of knowing what the correct course of action is, be it having the items renamed, or removed, or otherwise adjusted.

 

So while it is good to be aware of these things, and definitely poor form to call someone a gypsy at random, we have no way of knowing what the correct course of action is. In a situation like this, where there is no threat of direct harm to people, it is better to wait until those who are affected by the term speak up than to go out and do something in their name without their say.

 

Does that mean you should just be quiet about it? Of course not! Being aware, and letting others know, and perhaps even trying to find people of Romani descent (or other applicable ethnicities) to get their input are all things that can be done that can have very positive results! But rushing out without knowing the thoughts of those actually affected is far more likely to end poorly at best.

The point I was making with the quote is if we don't stand up for others who feel that they are being wronged in some way or are having something bad happening, when it happens to us, who will speak for us?

 

There are people on the board who have relations to Rommas, and they said it offends them.

 

 

You have every right to think the word is in bad taste on Neopets and the world. That's not what I'm trying to say. What I am saying is that if the Romani Neopets users have not had any problems with the word for the past 15 years, we likely shouldn't take it upon ourselves to call for it to be removed. It's not our place to come and speak on their behalf because they can speak for themselves.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd but Anime. Listen to her. lol

 

As said before, just because it doesn't offend some of them, that doesn't mean it doesn't offend all of them.

 

The thing is, we also don't know if enough people have or haven't had problems with it. Just because the items haven't been changed, that doesn't mean there are not Romani Neopet users who have problems with it.

[Mouseykins]

Has anyone considered the fact that the artist(s) who designed the items did so to portray his/her culture in an artistic way?

If you have a problem with it, rather then debating it here for hours on end why not send in a ticket to TNT or a question to the editorial and see what they have to say regarding the items. Just my two bits on this topic.

[Lady Lyuba]

Has anyone considered the fact that the artist(s) who designed the items did so to portray his/her culture in an artistic way?

If you have a problem with it, rather then debating it here for hours on end why not send in a ticket to TNT or a question to the editorial and see what they have to say regarding the items. Just my two bits on this topic.

If they did, then it wouldn't be so blatantly offensive and stereotypical. These items were clearly made by gadje, or "non-Romani", and as far as I know, there are no Romani members on TNT. They wouldn't want to work for them, either. I don't blame them for their hatred of white people and non-Romani, since everyone in Europe has treated them like cockroaches since they first arrived to the continent in the middle ages. Those who fled to the USA have to deal with us ignorant Americans who have no idea that the g-word is a racial slur and romanticize the stereotype, unaware of how offensive this practice is.

[SillySilenia]

Has anyone considered the fact that the artist(s) who designed the items did so to portray his/her culture in an artistic way?

If you have a problem with it, rather then debating it here for hours on end why not send in a ticket to TNT or a question to the editorial and see what they have to say regarding the items. Just my two bits on this topic.

A traditional Romani woman would almost certainly never wear a dress due to their purity code. Upper body is clean, lower body is unclean, the two must come into as little contact as possible. It is not uncommon for them to wash lower-body clothes separately from upper-body clothes. Thus, wearing a dress would be rather unlikely.

 

Yet there are several "gypsy dresses" on Neopets.

 

Most Romani seem to be getting rather tired of constantly being associated with fortune-telling and mystery. Yet look at the description of the Gypsy Colouring Book. And Gypsy Dances. And the Gypsy Camp TGC card.

 

I also have serious doubts that a Romani would write the following description on the book Gypsy Secrets: Found amongst debris in the spooky gypsy camp - do you dare read it?

 

Oh, and the Gypsys Curse TCG card. I highly doubt a Romani would give a card the description "Her curses ranged from slightly annoying to downright malicious", because the suspicions of Romani cursing someone has seen several Romani killed.

 

Oh, and that whole Tales of Woe plot? Most traditional Romani avoid ever visiting the place their dead are buried ever again after the mourning period is over. Many traditional Romani refrain from even speaking the names of those that have passed away. The chances of them settling practically next to a graveyard are... let's just say "rather small"?

 

As to sending tickets to TNT... as I was hunting down a few sources for my previous post, I came across several mentions of moderately-large to large groups of people, Romani or not, who have sent tickets. Some who even have quit the site over it.

 

But TNT has not changed a thing.

[Shane for Wax]

Since none of us seem to be of Roma descent, it isn't on us to speak for those who are. However, being an ally to them is an option entirely open to us.

 

I think maybe if enough people submitted a ticket about it (but not in template form unless someone isn't sure how to word something. Things have more impact if it isn't a template message) they would have to address it eventually. Unless they simply decide it isn't enough people (how many people play Neopets now? 10s of millions?)

 

I've been thinking of removing the g*psy boy vest I have on my lupe as well. That could also be something to do, remove the items with that term from our pets. You don't have to destroy the item, just not use the item with the word in it.

 

As for people identifying with the word, this is a very common thing with oppressed minorities. As a Ukrainian, I am allowed to reclaim the word 'ukey' at my discretion. Other people lacking that heritage do not have the ability to speak over me or to tell me how to identify.

 

However, I cannot reclaim the t-slur as it is not used heavily against transmen. It's more often used against transwomen and thus is up to them to reclaim it, not someone like me. (Some may have noticed my gender changed when I returned to this site so yeah there ya go that's why)

 

It's a very complicated thing, honestly.

[vickix]

I come from a travellers/gypsy background and I don't find the word 'gypsy' offensive in the slightest. It is the word used to describe a culture or way of life, if people decide to use it as a slur then that isn't the word causing offense, it's the person using it who's doing that.

 

Banning or changing the word doesn't fix anything, it just puts a band aid on the bigger problem.

[siniri]

I submitted a ticket under "comments and feedback" yesterday. I just checked the system, and that ticket has been closed. TNT's response was this:

Thank you for contacting us via the Feedback form. If, in fact, you have an actual support issue regarding your account, please submit a ticket here:

http://s2.parature.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=5174

Again, thank you for writing in and we hope you continue to enjoy Neopets!

This seems to be the generic response to any "comment/feedback" ticket submitted (I submitted one about the potentially dangerous description of "rhubarb plant" in Aug. 2013 and got the same response. And TNT has not changed that item's description in the past year+).

 

Anyone else tried submitting a ticket?

 

I know some people say this isn't any of my business since I am not of Roma descent. However, this reminds me of a controversial St. Patrick's Day release of a "black and tan" shoe by a famous shoe company (and of a "black and tan" ice cream by a famous ice cream company). At first, the company claimed that its use of that name was a tribute to the drink of the same name, and that it should therefore be taken as a compliment by Irish people, since it had nothing to do with the Black and Tans (a brutal force responsible for a number of attacks on civilians in the Irish War for Independence). My grandmother witnessed the Black and Tans burn and loot her city from her window, mere blocks from the action. Associating the drink with Ireland shows a lack of knowledge and understanding of Irish history and culture (while perpetuating the stereotype of the drunk Irishman).

 

During this controversy, there seemed to be two main types of (non-Irish) respondents: "Irish Americans" (whose great-great-great-great- grandparent might have been born in the old sod, and who love their "Irish" heritage of getting drunk and wearing green on St. Patrick's Day) who said that those who were offended should get over it and have an Irish sense of humor (they were not offended, and so we shouldn't be, either), and those who learned about the history and helped raise awareness about the issue. I appreciated every single person in the latter group, whether or not they had any Irish ancestry, and their efforts helped reach the company (who pulled the shoe/ice cream and issued an apology).

 

I realize there's a huge difference in the "status" of Irish vs. Roma culture in the world. It's "cool" to be Irish, while Roma are often discriminated against. There are millions of Irish people (and tens of millions of proud Irish descent), while there are vastly fewer Roma. But I think this difference just highlights why it is so important that people of non-Roma descent who care about this issue (having learned that it bothers many Roma, and that Roma have been trying to get Neopets to change) help raise awareness.

[brynchilla]

Has anyone considered the fact that the artist(s) who designed the items did so to portray his/her culture in an artistic way?

If you have a problem with it, rather then debating it here for hours on end why not send in a ticket to TNT or a question to the editorial and see what they have to say regarding the items. Just my two bits on this topic.

This doesn't seem 'artistic'. It seems very stereotypical.

 

This board is the Neopets debate board, where such subjects are debated. From the experience I've had in the past regarding such questions, they go unanswered.

 

I come from a travellers/gypsy background and I don't find the word 'gypsy' offensive in the slightest. It is the word used to describe a culture or way of life, if people decide to use it as a slur then that isn't the word causing offense, it's the person using it who's doing that.

 

Banning or changing the word doesn't fix anything, it just puts a band aid on the bigger problem.

As I said before, just because some don't find it offensive, doesn't mean all will.

 

I think it brings awareness to it.

 

I submitted a ticket under "comments and feedback" yesterday. I just checked the system, and that ticket has been closed. TNT's response was this:

This seems to be the generic response to any "comment/feedback" ticket submitted (I submitted one about the potentially dangerous description of "rhubarb plant" in Aug. 2013 and got the same response. And TNT has not changed that item's description in the past year+).

 

Anyone else tried submitting a ticket?

 

I know some people say this isn't any of my business since I am not of Roma descent. However, this reminds me of a controversial St. Patrick's Day release of a "black and tan" shoe by a famous shoe company (and of a "black and tan" ice cream by a famous ice cream company). At first, the company claimed that its use of that name was a tribute to the drink of the same name, and that it should therefore be taken as a compliment by Irish people, since it had nothing to do with the Black and Tans (a brutal force responsible for a number of attacks on civilians in the Irish War for Independence). My grandmother witnessed the Black and Tans burn and loot her city from her window, mere blocks from the action. Associating the drink with Ireland shows a lack of knowledge and understanding of Irish history and culture (while perpetuating the stereotype of the drunk Irishman).

 

During this controversy, there seemed to be two main types of (non-Irish) respondents: "Irish Americans" (whose great-great-great-great- grandparent might have been born in the old sod, and who love their "Irish" heritage of getting drunk and wearing green on St. Patrick's Day) who said that those who were offended should get over it and have an Irish sense of humor (they were not offended, and so we shouldn't be, either), and those who learned about the history and helped raise awareness about the issue. I appreciated every single person in the latter group, whether or not they had any Irish ancestry, and their efforts helped reach the company (who pulled the shoe/ice cream and issued an apology).

 

I realize there's a huge difference in the "status" of Irish vs. Roma culture in the world. It's "cool" to be Irish, while Roma are often discriminated against. There are millions of Irish people (and tens of millions of proud Irish descent), while there are vastly fewer Roma. But I think this difference just highlights why it is so important that people of non-Roma descent who care about this issue (having learned that it bothers many Roma, and that Roma have been trying to get Neopets to change) help raise awareness.

I've had that response numerous times, from different questions. When the Coincidence was releasing new avatars, I sent in 3 tickets, all closed saying the same thing. Then I sent in 2 others, asking if they even looked at it. What do you know, closed with the same thing!

 

As Shane For Wax said, not being of Romma descent doesn't stop us from being an ally. However, we need to watch what we say and what we do so we do not over step anything. We do not want to make people of Romma descent so uncomfortable that they do not want to speak out about something that concerns them.

[siniri]

As Shane For Wax said, not being of Romma descent doesn't stop us from being an ally. However, we need to watch what we say and what we do so we do not over step anything. We do not want to make people of Romma descent so uncomfortable that they do not want to speak out about something that concerns them.

Did I say something or do something that overstepped anything? Am I making anyone uncomfortable? That was certainly not my intention, and if I did, I apologize.

 

There have been calls by some Roma people online for Neopets to stop using the g-word. One of these calls specifically asked for as many people as possible to submit tickets to TNT. And so I did so. I didn't give the specifics of my ticket here, but I think I was respectful in my ticket -- I did not in any way imply that I myself am Roma; I just highlighted the potential connotations of the word, mentioned that it was offensive to many people, and asked that TNT stop using the word, especially since it's an international site with a number of child players.

 

I didn't see vickix's post before I made mine (I wrote mine last night but for some reason it didn't post, so I posted it this morning). I was not trying to undermine her opinion. There are plenty of people who don't view it as a slur, and many more who do not mean it as a slur. However, since some do see it as a slur and would prefer the word be removed from the site, I'd like to help remove it from the site for them so that everyone can be comfortable on the site. I don't think anyone's said they would prefer Neopets continue using the word and would feel uncomfortable if it were removed. I agree that more can and should be done to decrease discrimination, but creating a safer environment where all feel welcome would be a start. Vickix, is there anything specifically you would rather see done on Neopets in addition to/instead of removing the word?

[brynchilla]

Did I say something or do something that overstepped anything? Am I making anyone uncomfortable? That was certainly not my intention, and if I did, I apologize.

 

There have been calls by some Roma people online for Neopets to stop using the g-word. One of these calls specifically asked for as many people as possible to submit tickets to TNT. And so I did so. I didn't give the specifics of my ticket here, but I think I was respectful in my ticket -- I did not in any way imply that I myself am Roma; I just highlighted the potential connotations of the word, mentioned that it was offensive to many people, and asked that TNT stop using the word, especially since it's an international site with a number of child players.

 

I didn't see vickix's post before I made mine (I wrote mine last night but for some reason it didn't post, so I posted it this morning). I was not trying to undermine her opinion. There are plenty of people who don't view it as a slur, and many more who do not mean it as a slur. However, since some do see it as a slur and would prefer the word be removed from the site, I'd like to help remove it from the site for them so that everyone can be comfortable on the site. I don't think anyone's said they would prefer Neopets continue using the word and would feel uncomfortable if it were removed. I agree that more can and should be done to decrease discrimination, but creating a safer environment where all feel welcome would be a start. Vickix, is there anything specifically you would rather see done on Neopets in addition to/instead of removing the word?

Goodness, no! The overstepping part wasn't directed towards anyone on the boards. It was just meant as a general reminder. I know I have a tendency of getting carried away with things, and we have to try not to for things like this.

 

When it comes to possibly removing or changing the word, we have to think of the possibilities. How could it hurt/harm, and how could it help?

[Naamah D.]

While it is undoubtedly true that in the end, it should be the insiders' views, not that of outsiders, that decides whether or not something is offensive, it is pretty well-documented that the word Gypsy is considered offensive by a good portion of the Romani people.

(http://helloimlulu.tumblr.com/Romani, http://tooyoungforthelivingdead.tumblr.com/post/43718585528/terminology, http://clarenecessities.tumblr.com/post/92881373312/the-problem-with-the-word-gypsy, http://chirikli.tumblr.com/post/52961951932/its-a-slur-a-rromani-womans-thoughts-on-the, to give just a few sources by Romani).

 

While, as you say, there certainly are proud gypsies and self-identifying gypsies of both Romani and non-Romani descent (although in the latter case, I do wonder if they are aware that most Romani consider the term to be offensive), what makes the case on Neopets all the more painful is that the word Gypsy is used in combination with what pretty much is the classic stereotyping of the Romani.

Here's a Romani source that specifically points out the use of gypsy and said stereotyping on Neopets: http://rroma-in-art.tumblr.com/post/96734404486/this-isnt-technically-art-but-it-has-come-to-my. Although they do not technically speak out against the word "gypsy" in the body of said text, the tagging of the post with "slur" is clear enough.

Here's a response to that post that shows said post's writer isn't exactly the only one bothered by it: http://dragon-well.tumblr.com/post/103473422995/rroma-in-art-this-isnt-technically-art-but-it

And another source, where the part relevant to Neopets/this discussion is specifically about the word gypsy: http://tealrallythong.tumblr.com/tagged/now-if-only-neopets-stopped-using-it (a bit more subtle in its reference to Neopets, but please look at the post's tagging and its url)

 

P.S./EDIT: By the way, it's not particularly relevant if Neopian Romani are offended by Neopets' use of the word Gypsy, but if Romani in general are. Much as it may sometimes seem otherwise, there are still kids and teenagers playing Neopets, and if they learn to associate "gypsy" with the stereotypical depiction of Romani and furthermore, learn that gypsy is an acceptable word, it is not just the Neopian Romani that will have to deal with their ignorant use of a slur later, is it?

 

As to the "gypsy lifestyle", most Romani don't seem particularly fond of that one, either. Which makes sense. Let's compare it with other minorities that frequently are stereotyped and have slurs used against them. If someone took, say, some aspects of the stereotypical Hollywood flamboyant gay man and called it the "f*gg*t lifestyle", how d'you figure the LGBT-community would react? Not particularly favorable, no? Now say this becomes a bit of trend. Would that make it okay for sites ten years or so later to start using the f-word to describe a stereotypical depiction of a flamboyant gay man because the meaning "has changed through the years and now includes said lifestyle"?

 

Remember... slurs can only be reclaimed by the group(s) they were actually used against.

I agree on the lifestyle thing. Stereotyping an ethnicity based on media and history annoys me. Has anyone seen the shows " My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding " and "Gypsy Sisters"? Assuming all Romani people are like that based on a TV show would be somebody saying that all Italian women act like the women on "Mob Wives".

 

I'm Italian and I don't act like that. Not all gay men are flamboyant and like doing people's hair. They can be masculine. Not all Lesbian women have super short hair. The entertainment industry projects stereotypes.

[Scoobert_Doo]

The generic ticket submissions seems to be common for many support requests on commercial websites. It's unfortunate that you do not receive a reply back with any explaination, whether good or not. (Most companies usually send a reply. It may not always be what you want, but at least they send something). Has anyone tried another route, like asking JumpStart to look into the issue? Maybe they are not aware of this issue and they may be willing to change it. As they now own Neopets, it may be in their (best) interest to make that change. If anything, JumpStart should be able to ask the Neopets team about it and have an explaination. I thought I read someone else mentioning the possibility of bringing it up to the The Neopian Times Editorial section. I'm sure those questions are screened, but, you never know. It may not make the Neopian Times, but it could bring it to the attention of someone in TNT who may feel the same. Just a thought.

[Shane for Wax]

I agree on the lifestyle thing. Stereotyping an ethnicity based on media and history annoys me. Has anyone seen the shows " My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding " and "Gypsy Sisters"? Assuming all Romani people are like that based on a TV show would be somebody saying that all Italian women act like the women on "Mob Wives".

 

I'm Italian and I don't act like that. Not all gay men are flamboyant and like doing people's hair. They can be masculine. Not all Lesbian women have super short hair. The entertainment industry projects stereotypes.

Yes, but a lot of the stereotypes come from before tv and movies. Especially for Rromani.

 

Stereotyping is the whole point of why a lot of the g*psy stuff on the site irks people, Rromani descent or not. I mean, the g*psy village? Really?

 

If I had a dollar for every time I heard a stereotype against any of my identities I would be a hugely rich man and could probably buy Neopets itself and change things people wanted changed quickly and nicely. ;p

 

The entertainment industry certainly harms a fair number of people.

 

As a side note (and this isn't really directed at anyone it's just a sidenote), there is this irritating thought process some people have that where if some people don't find something offensive, then it isn't offensive. It's totally possible for a group of people to be divided on what is offensive or not. I think this is important to remember. Everyone has their own thoughts and feelings on words and how they are used. I am offended by a number of words that other people who are in my ethnicity or other identity don't find offense over. Which is perfectly fine. But to say 'but so-and-so is okay with it' is doing nothing but derailing the whole thing. I have seen so many people use 'i have ___ friends' to defend their offensive speech it's ridiculous.

 

I know my brother doesn't like the use of the word g*psy but I will not and have not said all Rromani should feel the same way as he does. Not all of them do. Same as not everyone dislikes the term 'ukey' being used against Ukrainians.

 

I'm not suggesting we all rise up and petition. But if we know those who are Rromani and are bothered by it, I see no reason why we shouldn't at least send in a ticket on their behalf. My brother no longer plays Neopets, so I'd be sending in a ticket on his behalf these days.

[brynchilla]

Yes, but a lot of the stereotypes come from before tv and movies. Especially for Rromani.

 

Stereotyping is the whole point of why a lot of the g*psy stuff on the site irks people, Rromani descent or not. I mean, the g*psy village? Really?

 

If I had a dollar for every time I heard a stereotype against any of my identities I would be a hugely rich man and could probably buy Neopets itself and change things people wanted changed quickly and nicely. ;p

 

The entertainment industry certainly harms a fair number of people.

 

As a side note (and this isn't really directed at anyone it's just a sidenote), there is this irritating thought process some people have that where if some people don't find something offensive, then it isn't offensive. It's totally possible for a group of people to be divided on what is offensive or not. I think this is important to remember. Everyone has their own thoughts and feelings on words and how they are used. I am offended by a number of words that other people who are in my ethnicity or other identity don't find offense over. Which is perfectly fine. But to say 'but so-and-so is okay with it' is doing nothing but derailing the whole thing. I have seen so many people use 'i have ___ friends' to defend their offensive speech it's ridiculous.

 

I know my brother doesn't like the use of the word g*psy but I will not and have not said all Rromani should feel the same way as he does. Not all of them do. Same as not everyone dislikes the term 'ukey' being used against Ukrainians.

 

I'm not suggesting we all rise up and petition. But if we know those who are Rromani and are bothered by it, I see no reason why we shouldn't at least send in a ticket on their behalf. My brother no longer plays Neopets, so I'd be sending in a ticket on his behalf these days.

She wasn't saying there wasn't stereotyping before. She was saying that she didn't like media stereotyping.

 

I agree. Just because you or people you know don't think it's offensive, that doesn't mean it's true for everyone. You don't speak for everyone, you speak for yourself. To say that something can't be offensive because you don't think it is, is silly. It seems like people who are saying that it's not offensive because it doesn't offend them are completely ignoring the people who think it is. 'Oh, there are people who think it's offensive? Well I don't think it's offensive, so it's not offensive."

[Shane for Wax]

I wasn't saying otherwise. I was just pointing out the issues are deeper than just the entertainment industry. Manly because it simply mimics the ideas and opinions of society at large. Apologies for any confusion.

[Lady Lyuba]

I come from a travellers/gypsy background and I don't find the word 'gypsy' offensive in the slightest. It is the word used to describe a culture or way of life, if people decide to use it as a slur then that isn't the word causing offense, it's the person using it who's doing that.

 

Banning or changing the word doesn't fix anything, it just puts a band aid on the bigger problem.

 

Are you actually of Romani ethnicity? If not, then you shouldn't be calling yourself one.

 

A traditional Romani woman would almost certainly never wear a dress due to their purity code. Upper body is clean, lower body is unclean, the two must come into as little contact as possible. It is not uncommon for them to wash lower-body clothes separately from upper-body clothes. Thus, wearing a dress would be rather unlikely.

 

Yet there are several "gypsy dresses" on Neopets.

 

Most Romani seem to be getting rather tired of constantly being associated with fortune-telling and mystery. Yet look at the description of the Gypsy Colouring Book. And Gypsy Dances. And the Gypsy Camp TGC card.

 

I also have serious doubts that a Romani would write the following description on the book Gypsy Secrets: Found amongst debris in the spooky gypsy camp - do you dare read it?

 

Oh, and the Gypsys Curse TCG card. I highly doubt a Romani would give a card the description "Her curses ranged from slightly annoying to downright malicious", because the suspicions of Romani cursing someone has seen several Romani killed.

 

Oh, and that whole Tales of Woe plot? Most traditional Romani avoid ever visiting the place their dead are buried ever again after the mourning period is over. Many traditional Romani refrain from even speaking the names of those that have passed away. The chances of them settling practically next to a graveyard are... let's just say "rather small"?

 

As to sending tickets to TNT... as I was hunting down a few sources for my previous post, I came across several mentions of moderately-large to large groups of people, Romani or not, who have sent tickets. Some who even have quit the site over it.

 

But TNT has not changed a thing.

 

As I said, they have probably lost many if not all Romani players on Neopets. Not only that, but this shows that TNT refuses to change the offensive stuff. Maybe many of their staff members come from Europe so they don't care? Or they are truly antiziganist. But I thought that if they were, there'd be no "g***y" stuff.

[Shane for Wax]

Europe uses the term as a slur just as much as in the US. Given the responses many of us have gained from TNT tho, it seems they fit into option B, they simply don't care.

 

And yeah, if you aren't Roma/Rromani it's best not to say you are such. There's a big difference between 'g*psy' and 'traveler' and 'roma/romani'.

 

Living in diaspora like they do and like my people do is not something you can lightly identify as. It's a shared experience, feeling, drift from everything. Cut off from the past isn't fun.

[marthaclark]

 

Are you actually of Romani ethnicity? If not, then you shouldn't be calling yourself one.

 

 

There are other groups in Europe that can identity as gypsy - the Travelling community is one such example in the UK and Ireland.

 

In terms of the history of these people, it's even been posited that they descend from peoples who traveled along the path of the Danube and somehow ended up in the British Isles. I've read articles suggesting that they do have Romani or even Indian heritage. There was even a study that looked into the genetic history of the group as being so unique, but I can't remember what the conclusions were.

 

There are also theories that they are Irish people who lost lands/had no lands around the Famine Era and had to take to the roads to find informal work.

 

I'm not saying these ideas are correct (I only know what I was encouraged to study for a sociology class) and definitely should note that it seems the academics in question think they know more than the groups themselves (I remember finding scant regard for Travellers OWN histories).

 

All of this is to say, though, that the histories of these groups are clearly complex and although Romanis may be the more salient group to most people when they think

"gypsy" - that doesn't mean they are the only group that use that term, or have had that term used against them.

 

I don't think the user was calling themselves Romani. I think they were identifying as a gypsy and contributing to the debate in a way the vast majority of us can't.

[Shane for Wax]

That's all well and good but we were talking about Rromani. The whole topic is about Rromani and the use of the g-slur. Any other experiences or use of the slur is kind of moot. Non-Rromani can't really reclaim the g-slur if it hasn't been historically used against them. Identifying is one thing, reclaiming the slur and saying it isn't offensive to them is quite another. It all has to do with who has had that slur used against them. As I said, I may identify as trans but that doesn't mean I can reclaim the t-slur because it hasn't been used historically against transmen as it has been against transwomen. But you are correct in that it's a different viewpoint.

 

Also as for the mention of travelers, the example given are a people living in diaspora as I mentioned previously. There are a lot of people who have been forced to travel and move around because of various things. It's part of why ethnic identity is so important. When you move around so much, it's hard to keep tabs on where you even started from. It adds to why it's so hard on people of Rromani heritage beyond being looked down upon by a vast majority of the world.

[brynchilla]

I wasn't saying otherwise. I was just pointing out the issues are deeper than just the entertainment industry. Manly because it simply mimics the ideas and opinions of society at large. Apologies for any confusion.

 

No worries, I tend to take things very literally, usually as said. It usually winds up with much confusion on both sides.

 

You are right, the entertainment industry tends to mimic and shadow the ideals/opinions and what not of society at large. So if the majority of people think something, it's going to be represented in the entertainment industry. (Whether that is right or wrong is another matter.)

[Shane for Wax]

Glad we got that smoothed over. :)

 

And yeah it... is difficult. Nobody is really trying to 'police' the industry and they shouldn't. We can see that it's changing anyways as society changes (i.e. more minorities are being represented without being token or killed off).

[marthaclark]

That's all well and good but we were talking about Rromani. The whole topic is about Rromani and the use of the g-slur. Any other experiences or use of the slur is kind of moot. Non-Rromani can't really reclaim the g-slur if it hasn't been historically used against them. Identifying is one thing, reclaiming the slur and saying it isn't offensive to them is quite another. It all has to do with who has had that slur used against them. As I said, I may identify as trans but that doesn't mean I can reclaim the t-slur because it hasn't been used historically against transmen as it has been against transwomen. But you are correct in that it's a different viewpoint.

 

Also as for the mention of travelers, the example given are a people living in diaspora as I mentioned previously. There are a lot of people who have been forced to travel and move around because of various things. It's part of why ethnic identity is so important. When you move around so much, it's hard to keep tabs on where you even started from. It adds to why it's so hard on people of Rromani heritage beyond being looked down upon by a vast majority of the world.

 

I 'm guessing maybe you aren't familiar with these ethnic groups, but the travelling community are an ethnic minority in Europe who have had the term used against them for centuries. If they choose to reclaim that term, that is their right. There have been numerous cases in the European Court of Human Rights in relation to the issues they still face in the modern day. There are long histories of exclusion and mistrust in Ireland and elsewhere - with references dating back to the 15th century, if I remember correctly. Are you so quick to dismiss that? There are even arguments that the Irish Travelling community may be one of the few possible examples of "white" people experiencing racism in the world.

 

This has nothing to do with gender identification - and that is a poor analogy.

 

This is not just about Romanis. This is about groups with whom the term "gypsy" has been associated.

 

If you want to see a list of all the groups that the term gypsy may refer to, you can go here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy

 

Please educate yourself before you decide who does (and doesn't) get to participate in a conversation.

 

This is not about groups in a "diaspora".

 

This is clearly not your area, and that is fine, but there is no need to pose authoritatively on a subject when you actually do not know what the term "gypsy" can be used to refer to.

 

And if you want to read about Irish Travellers, you can go here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

 

You might find the first sentence to be of particular interest:

 

Irish Travellers (Irish: an lucht siúil) also called pavee, tinkers or gypsies, are a traditionally itinerant ethnic group who maintain a set of traditions.

[Shane for Wax]

Once again, we were referring to Rromani and how the word G*psy affects them. It doesn't matter a hill of beans about any of the other minorities who might identify with the word or not.

 

The entire TOPIC was about Rromani. None of what you said even fits into the conversation at large when you take into account we were talking about Rromani and how the word g*psy affects them.

 

It's all well and good for there to be other ethnic minorities who have that word used. I know that they do. I know about travellers. I know about all of that. But that doesn't change anything about what the topic was and is actually about.

 

But it seems like you didn't even fully read what I said. Especially because there's a sentence right in that quoted little block of words there that already argues the point ahead of your own argument.

 

You don't need to condescend to me when I've been nothing but polite and patient about the whole thing. You don't get to say what I do and do not know about.

 

I never said other groups can't participate in the discussion, I said that there is a specific group that was being talked about in relation to a certain word. That's it.

 

It's a whole all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares scenario going on here.

 

I'm not 'posing' as anything, and I really don't see why you feel like that's true. I never said anything about how I'm an expert or how my way is the right way or what I say is the absolute concrete truth no objections allowed.

 

It may not be just about but the very specific group being talked about was Rromani. That's really all there is to it. Hence why it was constantly said 'but I/we am/are not Rromani' or 'maybe the artists are Rromani' or 'I'm sure Rromani have left the site in droves because of it'.

 

But I'll leave it at that before I start veering into breaking rule territory. I'd prefer keeping things civil and not having my voice silenced or my tone policed or be talked down to like I know nothing Jon Snow.

[marthaclark]

Once again, we were referring to Rromani and how the word G*psy affects them. It doesn't matter a hill of beans about any of the other minorities who might identify with the word or not.

 

The entire TOPIC was about Rromani. None of what you said even fits into the conversation at large when you take into account we were talking about Rromani and how the word g*psy affects them.

 

It's all well and good for there to be other ethnic minorities who have that word used. I know that they do. I know about travellers. I know about all of that. But that doesn't change anything about what the topic was and is actually about.

 

But it seems like you didn't even fully read what I said. Especially because there's a sentence right in that quoted little block of words there that already argues the point ahead of your own argument.

 

You don't need to condescend to me when I've been nothing but polite and patient about the whole thing. You don't get to say what I do and do not know about.

 

I never said other groups can't participate in the discussion, I said that there is a specific group that was being talked about in relation to a certain word. That's it.

 

It's a whole all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares scenario going on here.

 

I'm not 'posing' as anything, and I really don't see why you feel like that's true. I never said anything about how I'm an expert or how my way is the right way or what I say is the absolute concrete truth no objections allowed.

 

It may not be just about but the very specific group being talked about was Rromani. That's really all there is to it. Hence why it was constantly said 'but I/we am/are not Rromani' or 'maybe the artists are Rromani' or 'I'm sure Rromani have left the site in droves because of it'.

 

But I'll leave it at that before I start veering into breaking rule territory. I'd prefer keeping things civil and not having my voice silenced or my tone policed or be talked down to like I know nothing Jon Snow.

 

This pettiness is really not adding to the debate.

 

i really can't begin to fathom what part of this you fail to understand, or why you feel entitled to show such hostility towards people contributing to the debate, and more to the point - why you feel entitled to try to silence people in this conversation who actually come from a gypsy background.

 

With all this sensitive concern for how the stereotypical gypsy portrayal might affect people whose cultural and ancestral history is associated with the word - you (for some reason) have decided that this can only pertain to one gypsy group?

 

On what basis?

 

And how does one self-appoint as dictator of the conversation?

 

This is just laughable to me. I honestly can't fathom.

 

You get to discriminate in your apparently sincere concern because... ??

 

I really don't get it.

 

My understanding is that this debate was initiated by someone with a genuine concern about how the gypsy portrayal in neopets could affect people from groups who have historically been associated with that lifestyle.

 

I believe Romanis were mentioned as they are the most perceptually salient to most people - they have travelled across Europe in seemingly greater numbers than other gypsy cultures in recent times and I'm pretty sure most people have seen their stereotypical portrayal in like, the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Please believe that that is not the only way to be "gypsy".

 

I really don't think this topic is about telling people how they can or can't identify, or even what they should or shouldn't be offended by, and that definitely is not your place. There are voices here that are more important than yours and mine and trying to dominate a conversation by silencing people who could actually have a vested interest in the portrayal of gypsy culture is very counter productive to any sensitivity you might claim to have in regard to this topic.

 

You heard from someone who identified as a gypsy, and maybe you didn't like their contribution, but eh, tough luck? You don't get to dismiss them from your cause because it's , you know, not your cause!

 

And I really don't understand the drama in your last points because really you are not the victim in this conversation. It is even more ridiculous to try to make it about you.

 

I think it would be best to not derail this debate any further.