Yes All Women

[siniri]

I don't remember anyone in here even remotely insinuating that all men -- or even most men -- are like the ones in the stories we've shared.

And I agree with Kitta and HATH (hope that shortening is okay) -- this conversation is about what women go through on a daily basis. Some men might have had some similar experiences, but it's not the same thing. It can't be. It's like a white person trying to say they know what it's like to be black because X, Y, Z happened to them. Likewise, women don't know what it's like to be a man in today's society. So they can educate us -- using their own tag (or on TDN Forums, in their own topic, since this topic is about what women face).

Because one of the many microagressions women face is silencing. A recent study of men's and women's perceptions of which gender was talking more in a college class found that when the actual participation rate was 50-50, the men perceived that the women had done 80% of the talking. In order for the men to think women didn't dominate the conversation, the women had to talk for 20% or less of the time. Just look what's happened to many women who've tried to share their experiences. What motivated me to share mine (in this space, which I knew would be safe) was the hateful, shaming, and threatening comments other women were receiving in other spaces when they posted about this topic.

[Azurablue]

There have been many times when I've found myself saying "all men are pigs" and so on. I've had to stop a second later and remind myself of the thousands of times that I've seen just as disgusting behaviour displayed by women. This is a universal problem. Not only that, but I've had to remember that I've personally known some truly chivalrous men who would literally jump into traffic if they needed to, not because they were showing off or it was their job, but because they were genuinely brave and willing to put themselves in harm's way to help someone who needed it. To help a man or women, it didn't matter which. They were simply raised right. It's such a shame that in all my 50 years, I can count the number of people like that on one hand and have fingers left over, yet there's not enough fingers and toes in my hometown to count the number of nasty, self-centered, and viciously narrow-minded people I've met within just the last decade. The problem just keeps getting worse and that's because no one's taking the time to be proper parents anymore and actually teach values to their children.

 

No, I don't mean religious values. I mean simple, plain ethics and common sense. It may have been attributed to the Bible, but what about "do unto others as you would have others do unto you"? Pretty simple and sensible. If you don't like being harassed and assaulted, why on Earth would you think that the person you're doing it to would enjoy it? The trick is to start teaching this to children when they're just starting out. Pre-schoolers and earlier if possible. As soon as they're starting to talk, start getting it into their heads that being nice is good and being mean is bad. Simple. Once you get that generation out into the world and thinking right, it should all start to fall into place. *crossing fingers* It begins with the very young because the older they are, the harder it is to teach them right from wrong. This generation is already pretty much shot, sad to say. (Thanks to the Yuppie generation, unfortunately.) They are all "me, me, me; gimme, gimme, gimme" and care little for anyone else.

 

Of course, there are exceptions and I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush. I'm also not trying to preach to anyone and tell them what to do. I'm merely sitting here and seeing a problem and offering a possible solution from my point of view. Teach the little ones that all colours are beautiful, that all people have value, and that it doesn't matter if it's a boy or a girl or someone who prefers the "company of their own gender" - ALL bullying and hate is wrong and needs to be stopped. Fat, thin, tall, short... none of that matters - there is beauty in being different. Find peaceful ways to resolve issues. Make friends, not enemies. Agree to disagree. Keep an open mind. For those who are in a religious frame of mind (not me, but I see where you're coming from): "those who are without sin: cast the first stone". Plain and simple logical ethics.

 

(Sorry again: Long winded. Preachy sounding. Meant no offense to anyone that might someone get the wrong idea. I never know when to shut up. *lol*)

 

Peace to all.

[Navy]

My major beef with with the #YesAllWomen trend is that it's basically started by bashing guys who say "Not All Men" when they are grouped with a mentally ill mass-murdering psychopath. I'm female, but if I were male and told I am no different than him, that not only me, but my father, brothers, cousins, and friends were born rapists, misogynists, whose only purpose in life is to bring physical and and mental anguish on any and every woman around me I'd tell them to do something I'm not allowed to say here. I'm a frequent tumblr user and I cannot stand feminism as portrayed on that site, which is why I consider myself egalitarian instead of feminist. Men have just as many injustices in the western world as women, and I dislike how feminists push off any MRA member as some woman-hating-fedora-wearing-creep. Just because the injustices are different doesn't make them invalid or less relevant.

 

I actually like what #YesAllWomen has turned into but it's origins make me really uneasy. You shouldn't have to bring others down to bring yourself up.

[Shelley]

I think the #yesallwomen campaign isn't trying to bring men down, but bring to attention the injustices we face living in a patriarchal society. My social media has been blowing up with all these articles that my male friends are posting about abusive relationships in which the men are being bullied. I can understand why men are feeling attacked, if I were a man I would probably feel a little embarrassed as well.

 

We ARE living in a society where men are the dominant gender. We do not have gender equality. And many men don't realize that this sort of patriarchal society hurts them as well. When a woman abuses a man physically or emotionally the man is deemed as "weak" and taunted while the other way around would result in immediate action by authority. When a man inherits qualities deemed "feminine" he loses power and is looked down upon.

 

Men suffer too in this patriarchal society we live in, I think that what many people fail to understand.

[Navy]

I think the #yesallwomen campaign isn't trying to bring men down, but bring to attention the injustices we face living in a patriarchal society. My social media has been blowing up with all these articles that my male friends are posting about abusive relationships in which the men are being bullied. I can understand why men are feeling attacked, if I were a man I would probably feel a little embarrassed as well.

 

We ARE living in a society where men are the dominant gender. We do not have gender equality. And many men don't realize that this sort of patriarchal society hurts them as well. When a woman abuses a man physically or emotionally the man is deemed as "weak" and taunted while the other way around would result in immediate action by authority. When a man inherits qualities deemed "feminine" he loses power and is looked down upon.

 

Men suffer too in this patriarchal society we live in, I think that what many people fail to understand.

 

“The Patriarchy backfired!”, is the Feminist equivalent of saying “God did it.” The difference between God and the Patriarchy however, is that we can prove that the Patriarchy doesn't exist. Which is exactly what I’m about to do.

First, lets define Patriarchy. I’m taking my definition of Patriarchy directly from a Feminist, so nobody can claim that I used a “biased definition”. Patriarchy is:

• a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.

Now, if you were to look at only the top levels of the U.S. Government, you would admittedly see mostly men. Approximately 1 of every 5 Government Officials is female. But we live in a Democracy. That means that these people are all voted in. Which begs the question: Who is voting these people in?

Well, the answer is that women are voting them in. Ever since the 1964 election, women have been the majority of voters in the U.S. It is women who have the voting power, not men. Now I’m sure some would say that women are ridiculed if they go into politics, but that truly is not the case. Look at how much everybody absolutely loves the Queen. Women like Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman don’t get ridiculed for being women, they get ridiculed for being ignorant and just downright unintelligent. Nobody says that women can’t be politicians, and nothing stops women from being politicians. If there is a lack of female politicians, it is simply due to a lack of women who want to be politicians. But enough about politics, there’s other forms of power as well. Like spending power.

Women actually control 80% of household spending, and 51.3% of private wealth. Women are in control of the spending, which essentially means that their purchases largely determine what gets advertised.

Women are also favored over men in every part of the legal system. They receive shorter prison sentences across the board, and they receive custody in over 90% of divorce proceedings, in addition to initiating divorce between 66% and 90% of the time. Add in the fact that divorced men are 40% more likely to commit suicide, and it’s pretty obvious that women have men by the __ in the court system. And then there’s one more area, which may be the most important one of all: Education. Despite the fact that women make up the majority of college graduates, and that the school system favors girls starting from Kindergarten, women still receive the majority of gendered scholarships. Men are simply being left behind when it comes to education, giving the power of a higher education mostly to women. With all of these cases of women holding the power, and men being consistently denied the equal treatment and opportunity that they deserve, it would be intellectually dishonest to continue to insist that we live in a Patriarchal society.

(source)

 

 

I think that I should note that I acknowledge that misogyny is alive and well in the western world, I see it every day on facebook which is basically the cesspool of the internet. I do not believe we live in a patriarchy, I do not believe feminism actually empowers women anymore, it actually makes us appear weak and defenseless, and most of all , feminists ideas conflict with each other.

 

"Women can wear whatever they want!- Unless it's for the intention of attracting a man or choose to be a model"

"Women can be whatever they want!- Unless they choose to be a stay at home mom or a model for a lude magazine."

"Women are strong and don't need no man!- Women are weak and defenseless and scared of our male counterparts eek!"

 

Along with the fact that man-hating feminists are not a minute percentage.

 

Like, I've said I like what #YesAllWomen has become, because women do face hardships every single day. That is not proof of a patriarchal society, though, and I do not blame men for being uncomfortable with it because male struggles are for the most part ignored completely.

 

I don't want feminism to disappear, I want feminists to call out the toxic crap in their movement and remove it so I can call myself feminist once again.

[Shelley]

"Like, I've said I like what #YesAllWomen has become, because women do face hardships every single day. That is not proof of a patriarchal society, though, and I do not blame men for being uncomfortable with it because male struggles are for the most part ignored completely.

I don't want feminism to disappear, I want feminists to call out the toxic crap in their movement and remove it so I can call myself feminist once again."

 

First off I completely agree with you!! I don't think this radical feminism is the answer. and men struggle too. Their struggles are even ignored at times.

 

But interesting blog post, I do see where he’s coming from. However they have fairly radical and strong views on the subject which I don’t believe is a healthy way of looking at things. I really am open to what they’ve stated but fully embracing that mindset isn’t helping the situation. It’s just like adding even more fire to the fire that we’ve been trying to fight with fire (lol if that makes sense)

 

 

His points basically exemplify what I’m trying to say. The women having the upper hand in things like court preceding is wrong. They give us the upper hand, not because they’re scared of the power of women, but because they see us as weak, or not a threat.

 

 

Okay let me re-phrase. Let's not use the term Patriarchy and instead focus on gender roles in society. Let’s not really talk about feminism per say either but instead “gender equality”. Traits deemed as feminine have negative connotations for the most part, especially when a biological man displays them

 

 

To quote from Julia Serano, a transgender female about her book:

 

 

 

“In this book, I break with past attempts in feminism and queer theory to dismiss femininity by characterizing it as “artificial” or “performance.” Instead, I argue that certain aspects of femininity (as well as masculinity) are natural and can both precede socialization and supersede biological sex. For these reasons, I believe that it is negligent for feminists to only focus on those who are female-bodied, or for transgender activists to only talk about binary gender norms, as no form of gender equity can ever truly be achieved until we first work to empower all forms of femininity.”

 

 

 

We’re still new to this whole women’s rights things. I mean it wasn’t until very recently in the Western World and America that women have been given all this power we never had. I mean we couldn’t even VOTE until a couple decades ago. So we’re still adjusting. Tradition lives on in the political world.

 

 

 

When he states, “it is simply due to a lack of women who want to be politicians”. Women could very well be discouraged going down this career path. The odds are stacked against them while running for president. I mean if you’ve ever heard Judge Judy’s story about her journey through law school, you will see that it was not an easy one. (lol yes, I watch judge judy). This doesn’t mean that women are weak, it’s just harder for them to be seen as an authority figure. I mean look at the police force, and any woman involved. It's not an easy career for them.

 

 

 

And women making up the majority of college students? I mean heck, if you’re anything but causation you have a better chance too, so I find this a weak argument. Also my first year of college the vast majority of people that I personally knew that dropped out, were men. I don’t know why exactly this was. I just knew a few of the cases just couldn’t handle the academics and got involved in some serious partying.

 

 

 

"Women are also favored over men in every part of the legal system. They receive shorter prison sentences across the board, and they receive custody in over 90% of divorce proceedings, in addition to initiating divorce between 66% and 90% of the time. Add in the fact that divorced men are 40% more likely to commit suicide, and it’s pretty obvious that women have men in the court system."

 

 

 

Women should NOT be getting the upper hand in the court system. This just exemplifies my point even further. His arguments seem to support mine. It’s not fair that women are being treated like this. I don’t want privileges because I’m seen as being weak. When it comes to custody battles, it's a different matter..things get complicated when women carry a child for 9 months in their bodies while men biologically can't

 

 

 

 

soo basically I don't want any special privliges from being female. It's almost just as bad as not having any privileges as all. My definition of feminism is more about equality; Not female dominance

[siniri]

“The Patriarchy backfired!”, is the Feminist equivalent of saying “God did it.” The difference between God and the Patriarchy however, is that we can prove that the Patriarchy doesn't exist. Which is exactly what I’m about to do.

First, lets define Patriarchy. I’m taking my definition of Patriarchy directly from a Feminist, so nobody can claim that I used a “biased definition”. Patriarchy is:

• a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.

Now, if you were to look at only the top levels of the U.S. Government, you would admittedly see mostly men. Approximately 1 of every 5 Government Officials is female. But we live in a Democracy. That means that these people are all voted in. Which begs the question: Who is voting these people in?

Well, the answer is that women are voting them in. Ever since the 1964 election, women have been the majority of voters in the U.S. It is women who have the voting power, not men. Now I’m sure some would say that women are ridiculed if they go into politics, but that truly is not the case. Look at how much everybody absolutely loves the Queen. Women like Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman don’t get ridiculed for being women, they get ridiculed for being ignorant and just downright unintelligent. Nobody says that women can’t be politicians, and nothing stops women from being politicians. If there is a lack of female politicians, it is simply due to a lack of women who want to be politicians.

 

Okay, I personally don't like to use the word "patriarchy." But this still bugs me. First of all, he assumes that voters have the power in this country. But what actually drives who wins elections in this country are endorsements and financial backing -- and it's much harder for a woman to get those than a man. In addition, most government officials are not voted in, actually -- they're appointed (it varies by state, of course). And I love how he disproves his own point: "Women are not ridiculed if they go into politics -- except for these two women I'm going to ridicule right now!" I've seen it countless times, and study after study has shown that men are attacked for their ideas, and women are attacked for their person (often their appearance, but also their intellect and personality -- I can think of at least one female-specific insult for lack of intelligence, but no equivalent that is only used for men). (Psst. The queen is not a political figure. And not everyone loves her.)

 

And I haven't even touched on the gender roles inherent in society that make it much less likely for a woman to go into politics. (Because in most places, it's really hard for someone not in a traditional marriage to get elected, and women still bear more of the household and child-rearing responsibilities in the majority of households.)

 

Even putting all the above aside, blaming women for not electing women is silly. In the vast majority (if not all) voting districts, women are only a slight majority of voters, and they're going to vote based on how familiar they are with a candidate, how likely they think that candidate is to win (most people would rather vote for one of the top 1-2 candidates rather than "throwing their vote away"), and candidates' positions on issues they care about. Candidates with more money, endorsements, and air time are almost always going to win.

 

tl;dr: There are a myriad of reasons why women are so vastly underrepresented in government, many of which have to do with how genders are perceived in society. To blame it on "women not wanting to run" is ridiculous.

 

But enough about politics, there’s other forms of power as well. Like spending power.

Women actually control 80% of household spending, and 51.3% of private wealth. Women are in control of the spending, which essentially means that their purchases largely determine what gets advertised.

Women control household spending because they do the majority of the household shopping -- because they do the majority of household chores, losing 500-750 hours a year, on average, compared to men. That's in modern society, across a wide socioeconomic spectrum.

 

I followed the link to the source on this one, and he really cherry-picked his statistics. The "source" was not so much a source of actual fact as a very biased twisting of facts to tell the story they wanted to tell. For several of their wealth and income statistics, they mentioned women controlling 40% and were like "see, that's nearly equal!" Except for the fact that if women have 40%, men have 60%, which is 50% more than the women have -- and they even point out that the reason women have more is because there are more women, especially older women (wealth accumulates with age) -- so that the average woman has an even smaller slice of the woman's pie than the average man has of the man's pie -- even though the woman's pie is much smaller to begin with. And for some of the other statistics, they were like "68% of woman have some or all of the responsibility for this -- they're in control!" -- except that they don't break it down by what percentage is shared, so that men could have just as much -- or even more -- responsibility. At any rate, 51.3% of the wealth being controlled by women means that the average man still has more wealth than the average woman (since women make up more than 51.3% of the adult population).

 

I can't remember whether I read it on this guy's site or one of the comments here, but someone made the argument that the pay disparity for men and women doing the same job is very small now -- only like 2% (which is still a pretty big difference -- especially as it multiplies over time; if you could save 2% of your income from when you first started working until you retired, you'd have a huge nest egg). More importantly, women don't get the same advancement opportunities as men, so the pay gap still exists. Not only is the glass ceiling still a very real thing, a recent study (I heard this on NPR, so I don't have a citation) determined that the high-risk management jobs (leading a company out of bankruptcy, or through a merger, or just through a tough time, which carry a much higher risk of being fired) went disproportionately to minority and women managers. While further research needs to be done, based on a number of factors in the study, the authors concluded that it's not that women and minorities want these higher risk jobs, it's that those are the only upper management jobs they can get -- and so they're willing to take that risk to break through the glass ceiling. But white men have other opportunities, so they don't have to take the risk -- and so they don't.

 

tl;dr: Women control household spending because they spend significantly more time doing household duties. The average woman has less wealth than the average man, and makes substantially less over her lifetime.

 

I'll concede his points on the legal system, custody cases, and education (though I think part of that is that men have more opportunities outside of higher education). But this topic was created to talk about one specific women's issue. It's not called "Yes All Men." I think it's better to talk about other issues in a separate topic.

 

 

I do not believe feminism actually empowers women anymore, it actually makes us appear weak and defenseless, and most of all , feminists ideas conflict with each other.

 

"Women can wear whatever they want!- Unless it's for the intention of attracting a man or choose to be a model"

"Women can be whatever they want!- Unless they choose to be a stay at home mom or a model for a lude magazine."

"Women are strong and don't need no man!- Women are weak and defenseless and scared of our male counterparts eek!"

 

Along with the fact that man-hating feminists are not a minute percentage.

 

Like, I've said I like what #YesAllWomen has become, because women do face hardships every single day. That is not proof of a patriarchal society, though, and I do not blame men for being uncomfortable with it because male struggles are for the most part ignored completely.

 

I don't want feminism to disappear, I want feminists to call out the toxic crap in their movement and remove it so I can call myself feminist once again.

Feminism is kind of like Christianity -- there are many different schools of thought, and so some of them are going to conflict with one another. Just as most Christians denounce that family's church in Kansas that protests at funerals (I don't want to increase their search engine hits by naming them), I find most feminists denounce various radical branches of feminism (the "man-haters," as you call them). But many feminists, like you, won't even call themselves that because they want to distance themselves from that group. I personally refuse to allow them to usurp the term. When I call myself a feminist, that doesn't mean I have to ascribe to every belief that a few vocal "feminists" have (and yes, I do believe that they're a small minority -- they're just a very vocal minority, and they get a lot more bandwidth than the mostly silent majority -- it's tiring to be asked to defend things you don't believe, or told that you're not actually a feminist because you don't believe that extreme thing).

 

I don't think that last "conflict" you mentioned is necessarily a conflict. A woman can be "strong" enough to live independently -- it's not like everyday living really requires brute strength -- and still be weaker than the average man. Even if she's stronger than most men, she'll still be weaker than some men. And anyone (of any gender) with a weapon changes that balance. I'm fairly strong; I'm totally independent. But I'm still cautious. Because some men try to harm women. Which is what this topic was supposed to be about.

[Welcome Back Apathy]

With regards to the Not All Men thing--

 

When we bash "Not All Men", it's NOT when the "not all men" thing was used in response to grouping all men with murderers. If someone calls you a murderer just because you're a man, you're free to use the argument. But that's not how it's being used. It seems a woman cannot have a conversation about rape, or about anything without some man taking things personally.

 

Case in point:

Woman: I feel really uncomfortable when I'm walking to the bus stop and men catcall me.

Man: I'm sorry SOME MEN do that to you, but you have to understand that not all men do that. It hurts my feelings that you said all men say that.

 

Notice that in the example I mentioned above, it does not say it is all men. It just says that the woman doesn't like it when it happens.

 

This was a made-up example, but I remember a case where a guy had fired a woman because he said he couldn't control himself around her. One woman said "If a man cannot control himself around women, what's to stop him from raping his patients?" TWENTY MEN jumped down her throat for not specifying that she was talking about one man. She then got a bunch of rape threats for having said it--from the very men who claimed that not all men are rapists.

 

Not All Men derails conversations, period. Nobody thinks it's all men, so it's a pointless argument that takes the focus off of actual victims. To even HAVE the "not all men" conversation is demeaning to the intelligences of men and women alike.

[Azurablue]

Don't get me started on the "justice system". From what I've seen, women usually get shafted when it comes to murder charges. If a man kills a woman, he is likely to get 5 - 10 years or so. If a woman kills a man, even if it's in self defense, she usually gets life. Why? Because she deigned to fight back. How dare she? At least... that's how it's been for quite a long time. Perhaps it's changed in the past decade and I've just not noticed. There have been some cases that make my blood run well past the boiling point. Example: (case in the northeastern US) a wife had been tormented by her husband for years. She finally fought back and killed him in self-defense. The husband had been getting away with decades of physical and mental abuse. Whenever the police were called to the house to investigate, they pardoned the man because she was "being over-sensitive and had an over-active imagination". After they left the last time, he went and got a gun. She grabbed a kitchen knife and defended herself. She got a life sentence because she accidentally severed an artery and he bled out. She's been in jail for the past 30+ years. How is this right? She will never leave prison because a male judge deemed her a threat to society because she killed her husband. There are women's prisons in the US full of similar stories with women who will never walk outside in freedom again, just because they killed an abusive husband. Men kill women all the time and they practically walk away scott free. Rapists get a slap on the wrist for something that will destroy a women's life. They call it "getting lucky".

 

Yes, it's very true that there are a few women in politics and the "so-called" justice system. (In reality, it's not a justice system at all that we have in North America - it's a legal system. There is no actual justice in it at all.) They had to fight long and hard to get into it and I applaud them for the effort of breaking ground for more to follow. The problem still remains, however, that men wrote the rules. They wrote the laws, long before women were considered people in the eyes of the law. A little reminder, ladies... that's less than a century ago. I can't speak to when the law was changed in the US, but in Canada, women weren't considered to be persons under the law until 1929. That's right - 1929. This is 2014. That's only about 85 years. Before that time, men were legally in charge and it was they who made almost all of the laws that we all have to live under today.

 

Where am I going with this? We women have a limited amount of equality. We have some freedoms under the law. We also have to keep very vigilant that we don't lose our rights, which can actually be stripped away from us frighteningly easily.... by men. I'm not bashing them. Far from it. But to say that we're not still under their thumbs is inaccurate. We are. We have to keep pressing forward, never look back, and constantly make sure that no one is taking away from us what was so hard won. Sadly, some of the wolves at our door are from our own gender.

 

There are radically idealed women out there who want to see us all back in the kitchen with a chain around our ankles because it's what we were created by the Lord Almighty for. That we're nothing more than housewives and baby factories. These are WOMEN who are saying this, not men. (The organization is called "REAL Women" - they are a fundamental religious group (founded in 1983) who believe that men should run things, that women are incapable of understanding the complexities of the working world, and that a woman's only purpose is to be there to support the man. Go look it up under Canadian organizations.) These are the kind of people who we need to watch out for and make sure that they cannot take away our rights.

 

Sorry, this turned into a rant about the legal system more than anything. The point is still valid, however. We all need to be careful in how we look at the world we live in and remember that it's only been a short time that we've had any rights at all. We have to be careful not to let them get ripped away from us again by anyone, male or female. We have to try to support those politicians who really are looking out for our common interests and resist the urge towards apathy. Pay attention to who's running for election and re-election. Don't just blindly vote the way your family has always done since time immemorial. Think for yourself and be ever vigilant against losing what rights we've managed to achieve.

 

(...and I'm still not male bashing.... it's simply the truth that those who are in power are those who write the rules and the history books....)

[HomuraAkemiTheHero]

Don't get me started on the "justice system". From what I've seen, women usually get shafted when it comes to murder charges. If a man kills a woman, he is likely to get 5 - 10 years or so. If a woman kills a man, even if it's in self defense, she usually gets life. Why? Because she deigned to fight back. How dare she? At least... that's how it's been for quite a long time. Perhaps it's changed in the past decade and I've just not noticed. There have been some cases that make my blood run well past the boiling point. Example: (case in the northeastern US) a wife had been tormented by her husband for years. She finally fought back and killed him in self-defense. The husband had been getting away with decades of physical and mental abuse. Whenever the police were called to the house to investigate, they pardoned the man because she was "being over-sensitive and had an over-active imagination". After they left the last time, he went and got a gun. She grabbed a kitchen knife and defended herself. She got a life sentence because she accidentally severed an artery and he bled out. She's been in jail for the past 30+ years. How is this right? She will never leave prison because a male judge deemed her a threat to society because she killed her husband. There are women's prisons in the US full of similar stories with women who will never walk outside in freedom again, just because they killed an abusive husband. Men kill women all the time and they practically walk away scott free. Rapists get a slap on the wrist for something that will destroy a women's life. They call it "getting lucky".

 

Yes, it's very true that there are a few women in politics and the "so-called" justice system. (In reality, it's not a justice system at all that we have in North America - it's a legal system. There is no actual justice in it at all.) They had to fight long and hard to get into it and I applaud them for the effort of breaking ground for more to follow. The problem still remains, however, that men wrote the rules. They wrote the laws, long before women were considered people in the eyes of the law. A little reminder, ladies... that's less than a century ago. I can't speak to when the law was changed in the US, but in Canada, women weren't considered to be persons under the law until 1929. That's right - 1929. This is 2014. That's only about 85 years. Before that time, men were legally in charge and it was they who made almost all of the laws that we all have to live under today.

 

Where am I going with this? We women have a limited amount of equality. We have some freedoms under the law. We also have to keep very vigilant that we don't lose our rights, which can actually be stripped away from us frighteningly easily.... by men. I'm not bashing them. Far from it. But to say that we're not still under their thumbs is inaccurate. We are. We have to keep pressing forward, never look back, and constantly make sure that no one is taking away from us what was so hard won. Sadly, some of the wolves at our door are from our own gender.

 

There are radically idealed women out there who want to see us all back in the kitchen with a chain around our ankles because it's what we were created by the Lord Almighty for. That we're nothing more than housewives and baby factories. These are WOMEN who are saying this, not men. (The organization is called "REAL Women" - they are a fundamental religious group (founded in 1983) who believe that men should run things, that women are incapable of understanding the complexities of the working world, and that a woman's only purpose is to be there to support the man. Go look it up under Canadian organizations.) These are the kind of people who we need to watch out for and make sure that they cannot take away our rights.

 

Sorry, this turned into a rant about the legal system more than anything. The point is still valid, however. We all need to be careful in how we look at the world we live in and remember that it's only been a short time that we've had any rights at all. We have to be careful not to let them get ripped away from us again by anyone, male or female. We have to try to support those politicians who really are looking out for our common interests and resist the urge towards apathy. Pay attention to who's running for election and re-election. Don't just blindly vote the way your family has always done since time immemorial. Think for yourself and be ever vigilant against losing what rights we've managed to achieve.

 

(...and I'm still not male bashing.... it's simply the truth that those who are in power are those who write the rules and the history books....)

So far I think the justice system is still the same and if women are incapable of understanding the complexities of the working world how did Elizabeth Blackwell become a doctor and how did Marie Curie discover polonium and radium? Also I thought there was a law stating that if someone were to attack a person the said person could fight back and if someone were to be abused for years and that the abused person's life that is in danger they can kill the abuser because their life was in danger at that moment although the law I mentioned seems to be different in different states I think the rule still applies that they can kill in self defence if they have a good reason and being abused both mentally and physically I think is one of the good reasons also I could have sworn that if it was accidental murder that they could charge less than 30+ years although some laws seem to have unsaid loopholes that some people can get away with.

[Nubisbully]

So far I think the justice system is still the same and if women are incapable of understanding the complexities of the working world how did Elizabeth Blackwell become a doctor and how did Marie Curie discover polonium and radium? Also I thought there was a law stating that if someone were to attack a person the said person could fight back and if someone were to be abused for years and that the abused person's life that is in danger they can kill the abuser because their life was in danger at that moment although the law I mentioned seems to be different in different states I think the rule still applies that they can kill in self defence if they have a good reason and being abused both mentally and physically I think is one of the good reasons also I could have sworn that if it was accidental murder that they could charge less than 30+ years although some laws seem to have unsaid loopholes that some people can get away with.

 

Just a quick word of concurrence with AzuraBlue and an example. Marissa Alexander was sentenced to 20 years in jail for firing a warning shot at her estranged husband who abused her for years. He trapped her in the house and she shot in his direction, harming no one. She got a retrial after it became known that the judge told the jury that she had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that her husband beat her. IF CONVICTED AGAIN: she could be faced with THREE 20 year sentences. She is a black woman.

 

Compare this to how the Treyvon Martin case was handled and it's outcome. Zimmerman (not white but viewed as such in the news and to the general public) was found not guilty. He was allowed to use the "stand your ground" defense while Alexander, was not.

 

Being from Florida I know that they are, for the most part, an exception rather than the rule but, it happens more often than is acceptable.

 

Casey Anthony is another example but of a white woman (whom I was an acquaintance in high school) getting the better of the court system despite the obvious fact that she was guilty. This one I would throw more to police incompetence, regrettably.

[Mechavomit]

I do not understand what world you live in, people.

I, as a woman, have NEVER been mistreated by a man (for being female, in any case). I used to get bullied a lot as a kid, but it was mostly by girls and only a few boys, the others even protected me sometimes. I learned that in online games whenever I mention my gender, I can hope for gifts, help and other free stuff just for being a girl. I'm used to dudes holding doors open for me. Whenever I don't get the door held I feel wierded out like "didn't your mother teach you how to treat a lady?". It happens so often, I'm actually EXPECTING men to act all gentlemansy. I sometimes get seats in public transport offered to me by men (mostly by older men, but still..).

I can ask pretty much any of my friends and they would agree - they don't feel mistreated. Or maybe they just find someone staring at their cleavage devastating, I dunno.

But I'm not a non-feminist for those reasons, I'm a non-feminist because I feel that feminists are the most miserable people in the world. The pressure you to fear men, they try to convince that no, you ARE a victim, that you're weak, everyone out there is out to get you. And if you say otherwise, you're just broken, you don't understand and you need help. I once read on Tumblr that "if a girl tells you she's not afraid of men, maybe you're the kind of guy she just doesn't trust". Another gem was on another website, where a girl stated that "if you say that you've never been abused by a guy you're either a forest fairy or a cowardly lier" - now that was straight offensive.


Sorry, if I offended anyone. This is just my world and it seems really far away from yours..

[Nubisbully]

I feel the same way about chivalry. Grow up, southern guys held doors, opened car door, pulled out chairs. It was normal but I never felt it was degrading. Of course I can do those things myself but that's not the point. I think that women put up with more in life and shouldn't expect presents or favor but when they receive it(to a degree), they should enjoy it (using sense to see when being baited.)

 

Unfortunately, you seem young or perhaps just very lucky in your experiences. (not intended as an insult at all) It also might just be your outlook on life and who you have around you. I've become a very quick (and mostly accurate when it counts) judge of character. I've needed this because a little generosity can turn predatory very quickly. Through years of acquired mistrust and abuse, I no longer expect doors to be held but still welcome it as a nice change and a well raised guy. Through misfortune in my own life and a lack of competent parents, I have had to rely on guys several times for a helping hand. Each time, I payed for it. Staying at a friends house while I sorted out my life and quit my job after a messy breakup, landed me sexually abused and physically threatened with a sledgehammer, being thrown out the the second floor window etc. This is more extreme than a lot of my experiences but I still can't trust most men to have good intentions as even the quite one, kind ones can take advantage of a situation (even long term, very closely trusted friends.)

 

I think you have to consider Siniri's point about degrees of feminism. I have read some of the most atrocious man-hating nonsense and then heard someone else speak and agree that she articulated what I felt exactly. There's a girl on youtube who has a huge following and in general, I think she portrays a great feminist view. I think she speaks from a place that lacks experience but her intentions are good. Her videos extend this topic to the larger issues in our culture such as a woman's "duty" to shave, to make sure she is portrays as "pure" and the topic of coercion and assault as they should be definited. I don't consider myself a feminist honestly because I've never really thought about it or felt I needed to be labelled. If asked however, then yes, I would say I'm a feminist but not "radical' because most "radical" versions of anything are dangerous.

[Mechavomit]

I'm sorry for you bad experiences. However, I fail to see how that can relate to feminism because the law and society punishes people for that kind of behavior. It's not the norm. If it weren't against the law for a man to assault a woman then yes, we could say that something needs to be done, but the way I see it is that there will always be bad people. Always and everywhere. And we cannot fix grown men, we can only throw them in jail. The one thing we can and should do, imo, is watch how we raise our kids to avoid making jerks who feel 0 guilt for hurting another human being.

 

This post has been edited by a member of staff (Ruto) because of a violation of the forum rules.

Please avoid swearing, even in heated discussions. The offending word has been edited.

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[Nubisbully]

It's the change we need towards how women are viewed. Many things are against the law and people still do them and get away with them regularly. I'm not sure how it is in your country (although it seems like you are on a similar course) but here bad guys don't always or even usually get jail time. There has been video evidence of atrocities committed against young women by groups of young men and they aren't convicted. Assault victims here are very often made to feel like they instigated or asked for the crime. I agree that as parents, we need to raise our children better but that doesn't address the failings of society or the law when these things happen.

 

I realize that television is entertainment but a show here called "Major Crimes" had an episode where a father had to deal with his rapist son getting out of prison and starting his "hunt" again. He ended up killing his own child to save his future victims, knowing the law had failed and would probably do so again.

 

Unfortunately rapists and other predators regularly escape jail time or get out after a short stint, just as child killers have gotten out after 10 years while a woman who kills her long documented aggressor is in for 30-life. The law works sometimes but often it's bias and fickle.

[Azurablue]

I realize that television is entertainment but a show here called "Major Crimes" had an episode where a father had to deal with his rapist son getting out of prison and starting his "hunt" again. He ended up killing his own child to save his future victims, knowing the law had failed and would probably do so again.

 

Unfortunately rapists and other predators regularly escape jail time or get out after a short stint, just as child killers have gotten out after 10 years while a woman who kills her long documented aggressor is in for 30-life. The law works sometimes but often it's bias and fickle.

There have been many incidents in real life where a father and other family members have had to turn in a relative for their criminal behaviour. In many cases, it's a mother turning in her son for drug dealing, but there's been a few times when it's a father turning in a rapist son or a murderer. It's so extremely sad, but it happens. My heart breaks for the family, since they did everything that they could to raise this person right yet somehow, everything went pear-shaped with this child and they just turned out wrong.

 

 

I do not understand what world you live in, people.

I, as a woman, have NEVER been mistreated by a man (for being female, in any case). I used to get bullied a lot as a kid, but it was mostly by girls and only a few boys, the others even protected me sometimes. I learned that in online games whenever I mention my gender, I can hope for gifts, help and other free stuff just for being a girl. I'm used to dudes holding doors open for me. Whenever I don't get the door held I feel wierded out like "didn't your mother teach you how to treat a lady?". It happens so often, I'm actually EXPECTING men to act all gentlemansy. I sometimes get seats in public transport offered to me by men (mostly by older men, but still..).

I can ask pretty much any of my friends and they would agree - they don't feel mistreated. Or maybe they just find someone staring at their cleavage devastating, I dunno.

 

But I'm not a non-feminist for those reasons, I'm a non-feminist because I feel that feminists are the most miserable people in the world. The pressure you to fear men, they try to convince that no, you ARE a victim, that you're weak, everyone out there is out to get you. And if you say otherwise, you're just broken, you don't understand and you need help. I once read on Tumblr that "if a girl tells you she's not afraid of men, maybe you're the kind of guy she just doesn't trust". Another gem was on another website, where a girl stated that "if you say that you've never been abused by a guy you're either a forest fairy or a cowardly lier" - now that was straight offensive.

 

 

Sorry, if I offended anyone. This is just my world and it seems really far away from yours..

You've been very lucky that you've not been in this situation. I have to admit that aside from the intensive bullying I experienced when I was young, I've never been in that situation either. (Online gaming is a completely different issue and I've been run off sites by aggressive males for years - as a result, I don't ever do online gaming except for NeoPets, and even there, I have no NeoFriends because I'm scared that it will happen again.) It doesn't mean, though, that we need to ignore it because it is all around us. I just saw a husband bullying his wife and daughter just yesterday. I was in a Wendy's restaurant and the little girl, maybe all of 2 years old, was acting out. He came within an inch of smacking her as well as his wife for not controlling the child better. His language was very abusive and it sounded like there was a distinct possibility of violence when they got home. There were three other people around who were on their cellphones to the police. I'd have made it four if I had one. (Phone plans are way too expensive in Canada.)

 

The world is far from a perfect place. It would be awesome if we could fix everyone in the world and get them all on the same peaceful and well-behaved page, but there's a problem with even a lovely thought like that: who determines what that standard is? Sure, I'd love to be the one, but I would take every abusive person on the planet that can't be "corrected" and drop them on Jupiter without an oxygen tank. They'd think I was the abuser, wouldn't they? They'd be right, too. My views are probably way too harsh for some and not nearly hard enough for others. So who would get to decide? The simple answer is no one person should ever weild that kind of power. Which is why civilized nations work together to try and oust dictators when possible. Not that we do a good job of putting in something better, but at least we make the effort to try and help the people who are being crushed under the ego of a single dictator.

 

Getting back to the main topic, though.... I truly believe that starting this newest generation of kids on the right path is the only lasting answer. If we can somehow get past the "me" generations to one that thinks of those around them, has been taught common courtesy and manners, a generation that understands that we all need to get along with one another and work co-operatively for a better place for all living things.... then there really will be hope for the future. What we have now is largely selfish and self-absorbed, can't grasp the simple concepts of politeness and kindness, and enjoys a consumer-based lifestyle where everything is immediate gratification. A world of built-in obsolescence with no quality of manufacture. This leads to people growing increasingly frustrated with their life because there's nothing to have any pride in anymore. Which then leads to people lashing out at those around them and a need to dominate something since they can't control the spiral of consumerism. This brings us full circle to the problem of people (usually women) being oppressed and those responsible for it.

 

Last words, I promise. I still come back to the principal that it's all a form a bullying. Women bashing, men bashing, gay bashing, race bashing..... all of it. Why do we do it? I hate to say it, but it's half instinctual as part of the survival mechanism. The other half is learned behaviour. We can't do much at all about instinct, but we can break the other half of the cycle if we really want to. This takes education and a force of will. We need to start with children and teach them not to hate. This is done almost entirely by example. They watch us. We have to act right or they learn the same old bad habits that we learned from our parents. WE have to break the cycle.

[Mechavomit]

It's the change we need towards how women are viewed. Many things are against the law and people still do them and get away with them regularly. I'm not sure how it is in your country (although it seems like you are on a similar course) but here bad guys don't always or even usually get jail time. There has been video evidence of atrocities committed against young women by groups of young men and they aren't convicted. Assault victims here are very often made to feel like they instigated or asked for the crime. I agree that as parents, we need to raise our children better but that doesn't address the failings of society or the law when these things happen.

 

I realize that television is entertainment but a show here called "Major Crimes" had an episode where a father had to deal with his rapist son getting out of prison and starting his "hunt" again. He ended up killing his own child to save his future victims, knowing the law had failed and would probably do so again.

 

Unfortunately rapists and other predators regularly escape jail time or get out after a short stint, just as child killers have gotten out after 10 years while a woman who kills her long documented aggressor is in for 30-life. The law works sometimes but often it's bias and fickle.

The law has gaps. Sometimes. Even often in some countries. I've heard that women tend to get significantly less jail time and countries like the UK the can force sex on a man and not be considered a rapist. Sometimes men get away with rape, sometimes people get away with murder even.

There was a case in my city a few years ago where a gang of 5 people ambushed a man, who was escorting his wife home through a little forest, since she was working late. They tortured them both all night, the man died on the spot and the woman died on her way to the hospital. The whole forest was covered in blood, it was scary. The murderers? They got only 10 years. So yeah, its' scary. But I know so little about law and how it works so I just say to myself "If you trust the court to find someone guilty, you should trust it when it finds someone innocent".

[fullonparanoid]

I have to admit that this is the first time I have scrolled further down than the Neopets Categories in the TDN Forum Topics.

 

Wow.

 

I don't quite know where the line is drawn so far as language/images so I will try to be respectful of the TDN rules...but, it seems to me that this is a subject that is more important than rules (so long as decorum is upheld).

 

Let's start with the fact that I am a guy.

 

I am in my 40's...so, while not from a generation where most believe a woman is a second-class citizen...I am also not of the most recent generations who (imo) have advanced even further in embracing the fact that women are not just 'not second-class', they are EQUAL and deserving of every respect.

 

The newer generations really do amaze me (and give me faith in humanity).

 

I am a son, a brother (with a baby sister...heh who is 29), and a husband. I have 3 nieces. My best friend of over 20 years is a strong woman. I have aunts, female cousins, female co-workers, female neighbors, and female clients.

 

TO A ONE...I know they have each dealt with bigotry and prejudice and misogyny. Because they are female.

 

It makes my heart ache.

It makes me angry.

It makes me feel guilty...for, if being absolutely honest with myself and everyone else, I am sure that I have in my life shown bigotry, shown prejudice, been misogynistic...whether with intent or not.

 

We can all do better...and we should...and if the arc of time is evidence, we shall.

But it takes awareness.

And it takes action.

And it takes speaking out.

And it takes being willing to learn...and to teach.

 

I am probably rambling a bit at this point...but, I just want to say that I support the Yes All Women movement (if that is the correct word) and support any effort to see a safer more fair world for all women.

 

Now, this is all fresh in my mind because of an image I saw recently.

I thought of my mother. My sister. My wife. My nieces. My best friend. My co-workers. My neighbors. My clients. I thought of all the wonderful amazing women I know and just wanted to weep.

 

I am going to post it here.. It is not meant to offend or to trigger.

 

It was so jaw-droppingly direct...and sad...that I thought some of y'all might want to see it and/or share it with others.

 

IF IT IS AGAINST SITE RULES PLEASE REMOVE IT WITH MY APOLOGIES.

 

[Nubisbully]

fullonparanoid: I appreciate that you took the time to respond and give a male voice to this. I usually only have my partner to ask for a male perspective, but he does not subscribe to the "typical" male way of thinking (he's one of those "new-age" crunchy dad types, if you will.) I haven't seen that image but it is incredibly disheartening. I read an article recently by a well known (male, conservative) journalist recently, who believed it was more important to attack statistics (that are impossible to precisely pinpoint) than to support the women who have been attacked.

 

I think it is important for men to be heard and to support this idea. Without their voices, they look guilty or like cowards. Or worse, apathetic.

[leverhelven]

I just found out about this Pantene ad and I think it's relevant to the topic, so here it goes:

 

Pantene "Not Sorry" Video Tells Women To Stop Apologizing So Much

[Nubisbully]

I really like that ad (except that's it's pantene) and have a terrible habit of doing that. I'll hand the baby off to his dad and apologize, even though I basically have a dislocating shoulder and shouldn't be carrying him. He tells me that's it's his baby too and to not apologize all the time (in this situation and many others when I feel I've overstepped my boundaries because I'm southern and women should been "seen, not heard.") I think "excuse me" should be used, as everyone should use manners more, in my opinion.

[Azurablue]

@fullonparanoid: I'm adding my thanks as well for being so supportive. It's a good illustration of the facts.

 

The picture you posted shows a pretty good representation of reality. There are so many times when I've heard such horrid things said about the victim, yet very little said about the perpetrator. The truth of it is that the reason so very few rapes are ever reported is because the victim is the one put on trial instead of the rapist. Sure, he gets to hang his head in shame as they march him in and out of the courtroom, but frequently the police and attorneys will try their best with jackets and towels and such to cover the man's face and protect him from the media. The victim doesn't get that kind of help in most cases. In fact, the trauma of going up on that stand to accuse the rapist of doing the deed is why it's rarely reported. The victim's history is often brought out by the prosecution and the poor woman is practically tortured on the stand and in the press.

 

'What was she wearing when this alleged act took place?' Who cares what she was wearing? What difference does that make? 'If it please the court, it has come to the prosecution's attention that the complainant has had more than X sexual encounters over the past year. Does this not seem to be an inordinant number and prove that the complainant is promiscuous?' I don't care if she's had a different boyfriend every night for a year, it doesn't change the fact that this time is was NOT consensual. So many examples come to mind. It's just sickening how they can tear into someone who is already in pain. They just pour acid into the wounds. Yes, everyone deserves a defense, but at the expense of the victim? No. That's just morally wrong.

 

I've been in the position of not wanting to report it for exactly that reason. I didn't want my life thrust into the spotlight and picked apart by my tormentors at school or by the heartless media or the judgemental neighbourhood I lived in at the time. My life was boring and devoid of "juicy details" for the prosecutor to use against me. Also, it was irrelevant to what happened to me on that night, yet the prosecution would have come along and torn ME to shreds in order to keep his client out of jail. No matter what happened, conviction or no, I would have suffered for the rest of my days. I wouldn't do it. As much as I would love to see every rapist put in a dark cell and the key lost to all time, I would never condemn any woman for walking away and letting the *censored* get away with it. Not everyone is strong enough. God bless those that are. I admire them and only wish I had been able to make the one that got me pay for it.

 

That was many years ago now. It's all completely moot for me. To those sitting around and wondering if they can go through with it, I sincerely wish that you have that strength and can find peace in knowing that you did the right thing to bring the creep to justice. If you cannot... you know that at least one person out here understands why and supports that decision.

[siniri]

Thanks to everyone who's commented here. This topic has been on my mind again thanks to a couple of things:

1. Emma Watson's speech at the U.N. launching the "He for She" initiative
2. My youth group's annual "safe environment" lesson (which will be given next week). I asked if I could share some of my thoughts and experiences, but there's a planned program and they don't know if they'll have time. At the very least, we'll be breaking into small groups, and I can share with my small group. But my small group will be all girls, and I think it's important to engage the boys, too.

Anyway, thanks to Emma Watson's speech, I came across this TED Talk that gave some cohesion to the thoughts and feelings I had during the "Yes All Women" dialogue:

[Naamah D.]

Meh, I really don't take pride in being womanly. I'm a relativity masculine and tomboyish female. Sexist jokes are fine by me. I really dislike feminism.

[passiflora]

Meh, I really don't take pride in being womanly. I'm a relativity masculine and tomboyish female. Sexist jokes are fine by me. I really dislike feminism.

 

I don't mean to sound rude, but the reason you're can freely be so masculine and tomboyish is because of feminism. Feminism has nothing to do with being womanly and everything to do with being able to be your true self. Sexism can impact all women, regardless of how feminine or masculine their personality is.