The Big Bathroom Issue

[Welcome Back Apathy]

As always, please keep this free from abusive language, etc. Be nice.

 

I don't know how it is around the world, but I do know that California has a bill in the works about transgender students. If a male student identifies as a girl, or if a female student identifies as a boy, then that student will be allowed to use the locker rooms and bathrooms of the gender with which they identify.

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

I'm having trouble with making a decision. I'm normally quite good at putting myself in other people's shoes, but I can't do it in this case because I've never cared that much about genitals. I don't know what it's like to feel like you were born with the wrong ones, and I don't know what it's like to care about what other people's genitals look like. It sounds like complete cisgender privilege, and it is. At least I recognize it.

 

On the bathroom issue, I've made my decision. There are stalls. There are only two reasons to have sex-segregated bathrooms at all: 1) if rape is an issue, and 2) so boys don't find out that girls poop in real life. Rape is an issue in bathrooms more at night in non-supervised places. I have a really hard time thinking "Hey, that transgendered student can't use the bathroom because he/she might rape the other students." And I have a REALLY hard time caring about boys finding out that girls poop. I honestly don't believe in sex-segregated bathrooms, other than perhaps one bathroom that has nothing but urinals. In fact, integrating the bathrooms would help a lot, seeing as how all the diaper-changing tables are in women's bathrooms and sometimes fathers actually change diapers. So absolutely, transgendered students should be allowed to use bathrooms of the gender they identify with.

 

With locker rooms, it's harder. I think about the reasons for having separate locker rooms--and as far as I can tell, it's so that little Sally doesn't have to see little Timmy's ding-a-ling. As far as I can tell, the reasons for having separate locker rooms have everything to do with sex, not gender. (Remember: difference between sex and gender is that sex is what your genitals look like, while gender is what you feel in your mind. I know that's ridiculously simplistic, and I'm sorry, but it's the best overview I can give.)

 

If it has to do with sex, not gender, then I lean more toward not having transgendered students in the same gender but opposite sex locker room. But I would love to hear perspective from actual transgendered people about this. Right now, I feel too ignorant to make a sure decision on that. I have a few transgendered acquaintances, but I'm not close enough to feel comfortable directly asking them such personal questions.

[rombosulonte]

(I'm a cis woman, if that matters) I don't know, I'm against segregated bathrooms because I don't see the point with themt.

 

With locker rooms, it's harder. I think about the reasons for having separate locker rooms--and as far as I can tell, it's so that little Sally doesn't have to see little Timmy's ding-a-ling.

And I don't see the point with that either. Why do we have separated lockers? Because boys will lust for girls and girls for boys? What about homosexual and bisexual people? Where do they go?

Because we don't want boys and girls to find out that they are different from each other? They already know.

 

What I do know is that trans* people have a really hard time when it comes to bathrooms. If you are a trans* man and go into the girls locker, you get yelled at. If you go to the boys locker, you get beaten up. So where are you supposed to go?

I think the problem is not the fact that we have different bodies, is that we've sexualized them to the point of equating nudity with sex.

 

The way I see it, this bill is right not because of the genitals involved, but because trans* people can behave like their gender: If you identify as a boy, you don't have to use the girls bathroom.

[Naamah D.]

I don't see why people make such a fuss over it especially if gender identity is a personal thing.

[Bjork]

I believe transgender discussion is far from seeing an ending, and I am also aware that discussing it is a hard effort for most people, because it's not like talking about poverty or a specific social problem that anyone could suffer in any moment of their lifes; you are born a transgender, and there is little you can do beside accepting it.

 

People who find trans* attractive are ridiculed whichever society they might be inserted. This is the kind of mentality the world needs to overcome before actually being able to salubriously debate about this subject. Few is taught to children regarding the existence of cisgender and transgender, this way they end up developing a mind that doesn't accept anything different than what they are already used to. Of course, this deficit isn't only limited to sexuality or genders, it's exponencially growing and multiplying to fields that were never intended to be supervised by anyone else besides you: your personal life.

[Calfie]

I think its absolutely ok. In my workplace we don't even have seperate bathrooms for men and women. i believe its hard enough to be a transgender, so any law that makes it easier for them I applaud to.

[Relevance]

Well, the thing is, it would be good for the people that feel they were born the wrong gender. Considering how hard everything already is for them, it would be great. The bathrooms, considering there are stalls and everything, that I don't care much about. I agree with everything Apathy said about bathrooms. However, the others in that environment, namely change rooms, may not be 'all for it.' Many people are very self concious and private, especially when it comes to being around those of the opposite gender. I mean, think about being a girl in the middle of changing, and a guy walks in.. Transgender or not. If you didn't know at first, or even either way, I would think that they would feel a bit uncomfortable. Bathrooms, that would be fine in my opinion for the most part. It's the change / locker rooms that sort of make me doublethink all of this. It's hard to say whether or not I agree or disagree with the law as a whole.. For those reasons I'm split right down the middle :mellow:

[Riverus]

I firmly believe that every public area should provide a women's washroom, a men's washroom, and a gender neutral washroom. Every individual should then be able to choose which washroom they use based on their gender identity. If you identify as a woman, you should be able to use the women's washroom or the gender neutral washroom. If you identify as a man, you should be able to use the men's washroom or the gender neutral washroom. I don't care what body parts exist in the space that is typically found between a pair of legs. If you are a woman (and only you can say if you are a woman or not), you should be allowed to use the woman's washroom.

 

I feel the same way about change rooms. And anything else where genders are segregated.

 

Sometimes I think society would be much better off if we made clothing illegal and we were forced to see bodies as bodies and not sex objects. Then I remember that I live in Canada and it's cold most of the year. If we saw bodies as bodies, I don't think this debate would exist.

[worstpoetryever]

I agree with Apathy on the bathrooms. It's very simple, you just lock yourself in a stall and do your thing.

 

The big problem with segregated bathrooms and locker rooms is what I understand that non-cis people are questioned or even rejected when they go to use the one assigned to their gender (i.e. a trans*woman uses the women's bathroom and vice versa). I don't think that keeping segregated bathrooms and just adding a "third gender option" would be a good solution for that. (I'm aware that many identify as neither male nor female, but that's not what this discussion is about, right?) I imagine that anyone who identifies as a woman would want to use the women's room without being questioned, instead of going to the one for "other/both".

 

With locker rooms it's much trickier. I wouldn't use gender neutral one, I wouldn't feel comfortable. In an ideal world I would, but you know; the patriarchy and all that. Boys and girls are brought up to totally different standards and behaviours. Deny it all you want, but girls are taught to be pleasant and careful and boys are encouraged to be adventurous go-getters. I don't think parents even realize it, it's just so ingrained in society. And, back on track, what I'm trying to say with that is that women and men are automatically and (most often) subconsciously put in very different positions regarding confidence and mental/social control. Wolf-whistling, feeling entitled to a woman's affection ("Nice guy-syndrome"), and so on. I'm not ashamed of my body, but I want to feel in control of it. As long as I almost daily feel objectified by male strangers, I won't be able to relax and let my guard down while naked around other male strangers. I wish it wasn't this way but it is.

 

As rombosulonte said, it shouldn't be about those trouble-maker genitals.

I think it's a stupid question in its core; if you identify as a woman you are a woman, and if you identify as a man you are a man. The problem is the uneducated and/or ignorant people who don't realize it and feel entitled to bother someone about it.

[Naamah D.]

Being gender-neutral, I could use either the men's or women's room. I just use the women's room so I don't cause a scene. What are we suppose to do when the men's or women's room is out of order? Hmmmmm????

 

When I say gender-neutral, I mean that I have a male and female mentality.

[AJ11]

Im impressed with the sensible approach given here by others and simply want to say yes I agree, seriously where is the harm in transpersons using which ever washroom they feel is most appropriate providing they use them in a considerate and appropriate manner

 

My partner is trans and we have never had any problems out in public, however she is always careful to ensure that she is as inconspicuous as possible, though I doubt she has ever been read (recognised as of another gender) as she is very passable.

 

As for changing facilities, in shops it has never been a problem as they are all individual cubicles. We have never had to worry about changing in communal changing areas though to be honest I think we would just avoid it altogether and go somewhere that provided individual cubicles as she would hate to cause upset to anyone.

[siniri]

Bathrooms to me are a no-brainer. I suppose men might have an issue because of the whole urinal situation, but they're mostly still dressed, so you'd really have to look in order to see anything, anyway. And that's a major faux-pas, from what I understand. (I've used the men's room on several occasions -- I often do when there are single-person restrooms and there's a line for the women's room but not the men's, but once, there was a 20+ person-line for the women's room and no men waiting for the men's room, so I asked the last man to check whether any men were left, then I led a bunch of women in. Right in front of a (female) cop, no less, who just kind of nodded at me. A man did come in while we were in the stalls and was a bit startled, but we didn't look.)

 

I'm a little mixed about communal changing rooms, but again, people are changing, not looking, in general. There are usually places to change privately if you really don't want to be seen. There could be opportunities for abuse of the policies (some ignorant guy claiming that he's trans* when he's not just so he can get into the women's locker room), but that's an issue with implementation, not a reason to prevent the policy from being enacted (though you don't want to make it too hard for trans* people to be able to use their preferred changing rooms, either). Having different genitals doesn't mean that person views you in a sexual manner (just like having similar genitals doesn't mean that person doesn't view you in a sexual manner) -- and even if someone is attracted to the gender with whom they're changing, that doesn't mean they're viewing those around them in a sexual manner, either. If anyone is doing that in a communal changing room, then it's inappropriate, regardless of what is (or isn't) between their legs.

[lordnuggets]

This one's difficult...

I honestly would not be comfortable if someone who was a transgender woman who.. looked more like a man... was in the same bathroom or something as me. I don't quite know how this would work, but maybe if there's certain guidelines for it? Like, if you're cis then obviously you go in a mens/womens, if you are trans but have... had surgery?... you go into the one you are, and anything else perhaps there could be a separate one entirely? 

[0ryanna0]

Mod edited *****0ryanna0 does not agree with transgenders utilizing bathrooms of their choice. ****
 
 
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[tenacioustears]

I really don't understand why this is even a debate. People have been using whatever bathroom they want for a very long time and I don't think anyone has even noticed. It's not like there is a bathroom police. To me the fact that people automatically correlate using whatever bathroom you feel comfortable in with rape is mind boggling. If a person is going to physically attack another person in the restroom, I highly doubt it being illegal to be int here in the first place would keep them from doing so. There are doors on the stalls in women's rooms since everyone seems more concerned with the women's restrooms being shared. It's not like there's a big long hole in the ground and everyone has to do their business next to one another. If I walk into the restroom and some big burly man with a beard walks into the stall next to me more power to him. 

 

How about we all just go to the restroom and not worry about who's relieving themselves in the next stall?

[harleysith]

I've never felt threatened by the women (cis-gendered or trans-gendered) that I've shared public bathrooms with, but I so often feel threatened by cis-gendered men on the streets. The debate is such a smokescreen. I'm more offended that politicians only pull the "caring about the safety of women and children" card when it suits their political agenda and personal biases, but when it comes down to the real issues that cause us serious harm, they're either nowhere to be seen or they're actively working against our health/autonomy/best interests.

[MysteryAF]

As a transgender, it should be pretty obvious where I feel on this issue. Secondly, I don't even understand why this is an issue in the first place. You should be tolerant of all people's choice of identification. I would feel extremely uncomfortable if I was forced to use the men's bathroom.

 

I think the bigger issue to me is all of those people out there who aren't accepting of transgender people, including most of my family. It breaks my heart that I should be discriminated against just because I feel I was born the wrong biological gender.

[jellysundae]

Isn't a lot of the problem simply that a whole lot of people just don't understand what transgender IS? They don't/can't/won't accept that as a thing it can exist. It confuses people, and that leads to fear, and when people are frightened they react with anger...tie that in with a lot of people that use religion as a way to judge others and it's saddening, but not at all surprising, that these kind of problems arise.

 

Hopefully there's only 2 generations alive now who are likely to have a significant proportion of people who are bigoted towards trans people - the current grandparents and great-grandparents. Though I know there'll be a lot more people than I'd like in my own age group (40s)  who are also ignorant/intolerant. But surely your average Millennial is more enlightened?

 

And today's teens and kids...move down each generation and there's going to be less and less people who have any kind of issue with trans people, because they'll have grown up in a society that's more knowledgeable on the subject and thus more accepting. It's only a matter of time (I hope!).

 

 

Gotta say, I'm so used to separate public bathrooms that I'd not like having use one that guys use too, but that's really solely because guy's toilets SMELL! >_<

[eloralestrange]

Well, I'm not transgender, but I read your entire post before reading that last bit so I don't want to just leave without getting my post in. 

I agree 100% on everything you say, and I think your simplistic definition is perfectly okay. It makes it simple, which is good. I don't see anything untrue about it either. 

I have heard some people IRL say that people can just switch the gender to whatever they're feeling that day in public schools. On the other hand, there seems to be actual guidelines. You have to remain relatively consistent with your gender in some schools, which makes perfect sense. 

I've never been in a locker room, but if you actually get naked in there with other people able to look at you if they wanted to or if they accidentally saw you, that's demoralizing enough. They should work on the nudity issue first. 

In my experience, the guys toilets only smell because people don't clean them as often. Guys don't complain as often as girls because they don't always need to sit down. If there was just one bathroom, it would be clean.