On teaching kids about consent

[leverhelven]

So, a few days ago, a colleague of mine posted on FB about something "cute" that happened while she was picking her son from school.

 

She said that, as she was picking her 6-year-old son João, a girl from his class came to her and said that João was always trying to kiss her. He then ran after her and, as usual, tried to kiss her. My colleague said she told him to ask the girl for a kiss instead of just trying to kiss her. He did so, but the girl still said no.

 

She then said then told him to just blow the girl a kiss instead, and as they were walking back home, he kept complaining to her that the girl never lets him kiss her. My colleague then told him that he should just keep on asking the girl for a kiss, even if only one; to tell her that he'd be gentle and she'd like it.

 

People commented on the post saying that kids are like that, and that the situation was oh-so-cute, etc. But I felt quite sick about it.

 

Okay, so first of all, I'm a feminist, so I might be reading too much into it just because I'm so used to rotten stuff towards women. But in my opinion my colleague, as a mom, missed a perfect opportunity to teach her son about CONSENT. The little girl clearly didn't want to be kissed by him, ever, but instead of pointing that out to João and telling him he should respect that, the mom basically told him to insist, and tell the girl "she'd like it".

 

I mean, seriously? In my opinion that just reeks of the "boys will be boys" fallacy. I think respect towards women, and especially CONSENT should be taught since the early age, and that could have been a golden moment that just got lost.

 

What do you guys think?

 

ps: here's a screen of the post, in case someone reads Portuguese (or even Spanish, for that matter). Names are blurred for privacy.

[Ali Cat]

I agree, it reeks of the "boys will be boys" fallacy. There is a certain level of horseplay tolerable among kids, but both kids have to be on board with that. Like, for example, a little boy chasing a little girl around at recess. Little girl is laughing about it? Great, she's having fun, probably likes him back, and I don't see an issue. Little girl is telling him to stop chasing her? No dice, he needs to stop. Same deal here: by that description, the little girl is clearly uncomfortable with it.

 

I think a lot of parents think it's not serious because it's children, and, after all, what harm can children do? Bad habits in childhood lead to bad habits in adulthood. If a parent doesn't correct a problem behavior early, the kid will go on to do it later in life and wonder what they did wrong when they escalate it. After all, no one every said it was wrong, did they?

 

That teaches the girl, too, that it doesn't really matter what she says. It'll happen regardless of what she wants to happen, and that she has no power over the situation. She'll learn that it's what the boy wants that matters.

 

The little girl should go to the teacher, and, if the teacher is a good one, they'll separate the children. For a kid, I guess it's upsetting to be a tattletale or whatnot, but teacher's are there to keep the best interests of the children in mind.

[Mouseykins]

I agree with both of you! As a mom of two girls if a boy was harassing my kids like that I would not be impressed and would make sure to have a talk with them so they understand when they say no to someone then their wishes should be respected, and if not to tell someone.

 

I would also be contacting the mom of the boy and explaining to her that this kind of behavior is unacceptable and needs to stop.

 

That little boy needs to learn when someone doesn't want a kiss, he needs to respect that. Sure it's cute when little kids get crushes, but they still need to respect one another. I hope his mom teaches him instead of just telling him to blow her a kiss instead. That's just saying if he doesn't get what he wants one way, he should try a different way. Not a good foundation to be setting for our young ones.

[Angeló]

i agree with you and im a guy , it's not cute , that boy will grow up thinking he can force women to do what he wants .. he should learn to leave her alone , except if he's , you know , James Bond or something ...

 

[jellysundae]

I agree with you guys too, that lady needs to look at the bigger picture and see that she's potentially laying the foundation for her kid to turn into a guy that's going to be a serious problem towards women : /

[leverhelven]

It's so good to know I'm not the only one!

 

What's even more frustrating is that I commented on her post, trying to explain nicely why I thought that was problematic and all, but she responded by being super passive-agressive and basically saying stuff like "children are innocent, you've got a dirty mind" and "it's my son and I know how to educate him, thank you very much".

 

Like... seriously? She probably didn't even understand what I meant. Sigh.

[jellysundae]

Yeah, I'd say you've not just much chance of winning when you're trying - no matter how nicely - to voice a concern, because it's gonna be construed as a) criticism about someone's parenting skills, and/or b ) criticism about the child themselves. With any luck her reaction doesn't mean that the message hasn't gone home, she's just never going to ever admit that to other people. :shiftyeyes_anim: But if she admits it to herself that's what's needed. Hopefully she will talk to her son about consent, and it doesn't end up with an ugly incident at the school D:

[the_microwave]

This is such a good thread - I'm so happy to see that everyone is in agreement on this!

 

Honestly, I think one of the most important things that any parent can do is teach their children - especially their sons - about the imperative value of consent. The responsibility always falls on the shoulders of women, whether it's little girls getting blamed for not letting little boys 'kiss' them, or women being blamed for harassment from men. And the best way to fix that is to start with children. Like Ali Cat said, both boys and girls are learning from things like this: Boys are learning to harass girls and girls are learning that their feelings don't matter. It's really awful how deeply ingrained these ideas are in us; like, of course your colleague didn't listen to your comment, because she's also learned these lessons about consent from childhood. "Boys will be boys" is practically a foundation of society (see: all the stories about frats recently, although I suppose that's a uniquely US disaster) and it's just...so horrible and so exhausting. Anyway, your post reminds me of this amazing video I saw the other day. So worth a watch!

 

Idk - I just have a lot of feelings about this issue, and maybe this isn't the most coherent post in the world, but I'm glad we're talking about this because it's SO important.

[Mouseykins]

Ugh that phrase boys will boys irritates me right to the core. Just from using that expression it's like we are justifying what they do to be ok because it's expected of them, especially in this sense. I hope she takes your comment and kind of reflects on what you said, even if she's too proud to admit it. I know as a mom, I don't often like getting advice, especially if it's unwanted and will bite my tongue and just go with it. She could be doing something similar and hiding behind her comment rather then showing that her pride or whatever has been hurt.

[Delshnya]

I agree with all of you. I don't find that cute, at all. He seems to be really bothering that poor girl, so much that she even reach to his mother hoping she would make him stop. I don't like when adults don't listen to kids, like they don't have anything important to say. Well, sometimes they do, and they are not being protected because the adult they ask for help ignore them. One would think that society is advancing, that people are more tolerating everyday, but these kind of parents don't help, teaching their kids the wrong message. Probably that girl if nobody listen, one day she will get tired and push him or punch him, and when he gets hurt, that same mother will go to that girl's mother saying that her kid is aggressive and she should educate better... I don't support violence, but I could understand that she end up doing that.

[leverhelven]

Anyway, your post reminds me of this amazing video I saw the other day. So worth a watch!

 

YES! I linked that video to the Mom too! I love it.

 

People who commented on her post also "took her side". One woman went as far a saying that I was malicious and I was seeing something sexual in the kids' behaviour. Like... what? Did you even read what I wrote, gurl? Sigh. People get into self-defense mode and miss the point entirely. One more boy to disrespect girls' decisions.

[jellysundae]

Oh man : / And once people go on the defensive there's basically no chance of any of them backing down, good ol' pride -.- When it's just one person it's bad enough, but when they group together...forget it.

 

Delshnya's so right too, sadly, if this escalates and the boy tries to make the girl kiss him, and she does something to try and protect herself and wounds his male ego, his mum's gonna behave as if the girl's done something wrong with zero provocation from her son...this is like waiting for an inevitable train wreck to happen D:

[Dawn*]

Ugh. I hope everything turns out fine for the girl :( I hope her parents speak out for her and stop this kind of harassment.

 

Hate to say anything like this, but the mom is encouraging a future rapist in the boy. Don't take no for an answer. Keep going even if the girl says no...

[jellysundae]

Ugh. I hope everything turns out fine for the girl :( I hope her parents speak out for her and stop this kind of harassment.

 

Hate to say anything like this, but the mom is encouraging a future rapist in the boy. Don't take no for an answer. Keep going even if the girl says no...

Dawn, I feel exactly the same way, I just wasn't sure if we could use that term on here so I didn't come right out and say it :shiftyeyes_anim: We're not reacting in an over-the-top way here. I'm just imagining if that mum, or the people who are saying Patty's being malicious, saw this conversation...we're not saying that boy will become a rapist, but his mum is sowing the seeds, whether they grow depends on so many future things. She just needs to be aware of what she's doing, and I'm not sure how that can happen, because right now all she's perceiving is criticism in her child rearing habits, and wrongly interpreting Patty's concerns as her seeing dirty behaviour in something "innocent". But that mum's only seeing it as cute and innocent because it's a 6 year old doing it :(

 

If she could just picture him still behaving in exactly the same way (and worst) at 12 (and 16...) maybe she'd realise what the problem is here.

[loraleigh]

People who commented on her post also "took her side". One woman went as far a saying that I was malicious and I was seeing something sexual in the kids' behaviour. Like... what? Did you even read what I wrote, gurl? Sigh. People get into self-defense mode and miss the point entirely. One more boy to disrespect girls' decisions.

First I would like to say that there is something sexual to the child's behavior and it is also normal. All juvenile animals engage in some sexual role behavior as a part of development. Those behaviors and gender roles don't just materialize once the hormones kick in. However, those play behaviors are not sexual in the same way as adult sexual behavior is.

 

Horse play and chasing games are an opportunity for adults to step in and teach kids about boundaries. How to both respects and defend their boundaries and others as well. Unfortunately some people freak out and confuse normal sexual developmental behavior with the actual sex act in adults and may shame or punish without explaining or asking the child the "why and whats" about the behavior displayed. This is a good link about what is normal and what to teach:

 

http://nctsn.org/nctsn_assets/pdfs/caring/sexualdevelopmentandbehavior.pdf

 

It is important to teach kids how to set and defend boundaries because, like the mother in the example, some parents don't teach their kids to respect sexual boundaries. It is also nice if you can teach these lessons without making the kid feel shamed or that it is taboo. Healthy gender expectations are a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Girls can be taught to be assertive rather than passive victims or aggressively defensive.

 

I don't have children, but I have normal behavior events that were handled poorly by my mom.

I was born to older parents in the mid sixties. My early childhood playmates were three boys my age that lived on the block. I had play dates with girls, but I spent most days with the boys until I was seven. I played their games and competed for my place the same way the other boys did. I was aware that they did not want to play with my dolls, but I had no problem jumping bikes and building forts with them. When I was told a girl could not do something I was able to prove otherwise and run with the pack. In general I played rougher and took more chances than other girls my age. However, there were a few gender expectations that caused incidents.

 

1. My mother was horrified when she saw me riding topless on my bike with the other boys at about 5 or 6 years old. She pulled me off the bike and hauled me inside. I go a stern lecture about how girls should be lady like. I immediately equated "ladylike behavior" with not being able to have fun or freedom. From then on I made the boys keep their shirts on because it wasn't fair if I had to leave mine on.

 

2. In kindergarten, I was the one chasing the boys and threatening to kiss them. It was fun because they ran away and giggled. You could give a boy cooties by kissing them. I told the boys that marriage would protect them from cooties. I married at least three boys in my class acting both as the bride and the clergy. I was one of Virginia's youngest bigamists :) I married many other girls in the class to multiple boys as well. It was no longer fun to try and kiss boys that didn't run away. I'm not sure if my parents and teachers were most concerned with me being the aggressor in the kissing/chase game, teaching other girls to chase boys, my impersonation of clergy, or the fact that I was promoting multiple husbands for one girl rather than the more traditional polygamy.

 

I got lots of mixed messages from both parents and teachers from 5 to 7. I was never told why I could not go shirtless, only that it was off limits and I was bad for thinking I could. I was not taught that kissing is not an offensive weapon and I should respect the boys' wishes. The adults equated marriage with sex, not as a protection from cooties. The adults never asked why I was marrying all these boys at once. Although far above my understanding having multiple husbands was either promoting divorce or polygamy. I was also play acting at jobs/positions traditionally held by men. This was shocking behavior in the early 70's so I was told they were bad things for me to pretend, but not why.

[faery]

I agree with most of what has already been mentioned here. That was a teachable moment and she totally blew it. It's really weird that she was encouraging him to keep trying to get a kiss out of the girl. :weird:

 

On another note, I really need to get better with my Portuguese. :P

[jellysundae]

Loraleigh worded things so much better than I was able to, that thing about how adults sexualise kids behaviour falsely, because the adult knows about sex, and the kid doesn't. This is primarily about boundaries and respect, isn't it, the fact that he was trying to kiss her muddied the waters for me. If he was bugging her to play with his toy, rather than trying to kiss her, I wonder if the mum's reaction would have been different. I kind of suspect it might have been?

 

I feel the fact that he was wanting to kiss her is what made it seem cute and sweet in the eyes of those other adults, I bet if they'd been there they'd all have looked on, misty-eyed and smiling and saying things like, "Aw!!"...If he'd been hassling her in any other way, the mum might actually have told him to leave her alone, which is kind of horrifying -.-

 

I wonder what the little girl's done about this since.

[teeniem55]

I'd side with you. She needs to teach him to respect the word no. By continuing to ask, he is taking the little girl out of her power of saying no. That is wrong. We all need to use the word no more often. A lot of times we say yes when we really mean no because we are not in our power to be confident with our no. At this young age kids need to be taught that.

[twilight790]

Wow, that is pretty sick. Sometimes I don't understand people's parenting. The kid is going to have to learn this lesson sooner or later and as a parent, it is important to show your kid their mistake and correct it. My little cousin touched a little girl's booty and of course he didn't know any better. However, he did get in trouble and his parents straightened that out. That is an important lesson for you to teach your child as a parent because if they grow up thinking that is okay, they will end up being arrested.

[Koakuma_Heaven]

I can't help but wonder how this mother would feel if her son were having another little girl (or boy) constantly trying to kiss him against his wishes. I doubt she'd have the same 'aww it's so cute, well honey just give in' response.

 

I wish that this could just be an issue of a child who doesn't really understand what kissing means to grown-ups trying to kiss another kid, that it could be the same as if child A wants to crayon on child B's colouring book but it isn't. We live in a society where girls are expected to police their own behaviour practically from birth, where girls as young as 2 or 3 are considered "promiscuous" and "leading on" their rapists, consent is not something that can wait to be taught, it's something that children need to understand, something that a lot of adults need to understand too.

 

[An open paragraph to any & all parents like this] The fact is you- Mother of this little boy, are responsible for how you children, your family & friends, society in general feels about rape. Every time you make an excuse, or give a reason as to why ignoring consent is acceptable this time because 'it's different' 'it's not like that' 'she really wants it' etc you are the a link in the chain reaction that ends in a rape conviction rate of less than 5%. Take some responsibility and teach your child.

[decchild]

I agree with what everyone's said above, but I think it's important to note that given the current climate of gender equality (and I hope it never ever goes away), parents today need to realise that the "traditions" they grew up with are changing, and no means no.

 

I get pushing boundaries, but this was beyond it. If this was done from a man to a woman, it would be horrifying, and the same goes regardless of age. A parent could use this as an opportunity to teach about respect, manners, boundaries, and empathy.

[eloralestrange]

Ugh, that sounds just horrible. It's not even a bad habit in adulthood, it's a bad habit now, because this little girl is probably actually very annoyed with it. In the current moment. 

And I wonder what she'll bring back from this situation. There will probably be a time when the little boy (because he doesn't know about consent) just tries to kiss her. And then he gets in trouble because nobody taught him better.