Desert Diplomacy: Who? When? How?

[Lady Lyuba]

This is where I wish I was smarter, because logic puzzles just like this stump me. I don't have a mind for logic, I'm afraid. :(

 

Me either. I will totally fail at this D;

[AJ11]

I have never even seen a puzzle like this with clues and grids etc so this has been pretty much impossible to do for me, I had to just guesse the bits I couldnt work out and I just hope it was ok and if not its fair enough because I dont deserve it if I cant do it I guesse.

 

It seems like these kind of logic clues are quite common in some countries? I even saw some people say they did them at school, is that right?

 

Is there anywhere I can find a tutorial on how these should be done please? I have looked at the ones available on the fan sites for this event but it still leaves me confused .. I think I need to start with very basic ones to get the hang of it.

 

Any idea where I could do that online?

thanks

[siniri]

For those really struggling, one potential solution is to simply try each combination of guild x item for your particular item, and then try making a table/filling in a grid with that assumption, and see which times and methods are possible for that assumption (hopefully you'll be able to narrow the choices down some, even if you can't completely solve the puzzle). Then try each time you have left, and each method you have left for each time (write down everything you have to test). If at any point your assumption contradicts another clue, you can eliminate that combo for your answer. You'll have to keep careful track to test each possibility.

 

This can help you at least make a more educated guess, and by making so many assumptions, you should be able to find contradictions more easily. In total, for one item, there are 6 * 6 * 6 (216) combinations for guild X. But by doing what you can to eliminate times and methods, you should hopefully have a more manageable number of combinations.

 

Let's say you need to solve who stole Coltzan's Shrine, and the guilds are the Dogs, Runners, Screamers, Maniacs, Goons, and Flowers. By trying the combinations of Shrine x each guild, you find conflicts with one or more clues for the Dogs, Screamers, and Maniacs, so you know those are wrong. For the Runners, you have 3 times and 2 methods left. For the Goons, you have 5 times and 3 methods left. And for the Flowers, you have 1 time and 4 methods left. Just by trying each guild, you've already narrowed down that 216 down to 25 more

 

Start with the Flowers since they have the fewest combinations to test. Since you know which time it would have to be, just assume each method in turn. You might be able to eliminate two of them. Then move on to the Runners. Since there are fewer methods to test, start with method -- you might get lucky and eliminate one right off the bat, without having to try it in combinations. Let's say you do eliminate one, then you would test all 3 times for that final method -- and each time, you have a conflict. You've now tested every possibility for the Runners, and it can't work -- so you've eliminated another guild. Now move on to the tough one -- Goons. Again, start with method. Maybe you eliminate one. When you test the other two, you narrow time down to 3 choices for one, 2 choices for the other. Test those last 5. Let's say you end up with 1 combination for one and 2 for the other that still might work.

 

Okay, so now you know that the Shrine was stolen by either the Flowers or the Goons. For the Flowers, you know the time and you have 2 possible methods. For the Goons, you have 3 possible choices for method + time. You've narrowed down your guess from a 1 in 216 shot to a 1 in 5 shot, just by making 25 total guesses and eliminating what you can. You can try each of those 5 grids/tables again, really searching for conflict, to narrow it down further, but at least you now have at least a 20% chance of guessing right vs. a less than 1% chance.

 

AJ11, I'll search for a good guide for you. Some people prefer to solve using a table rather than a grid, so I'll look for a guide that explains both methods. I think the best way to learn is to practice a bit, so I'll try to find an interactive logic puzzle coach... hopefully be back soon with one. (Even if you decide the "brute force" method described above, you'll still need to know some tricks for using the grid/table.)

[AJ11]

 

 

AJ11, I'll search for a good guide for you. Some people prefer to solve using a table rather than a grid, so I'll look for a guide that explains both methods. I think the best way to learn is to practice a bit, so I'll try to find an interactive logic puzzle coach... hopefully be back soon with one. (Even if you decide the "brute force" method described above, you'll still need to know some tricks for using the grid/table.)

Thanks thats very kind of you, :rock:

there is no rush, I have already submitted a guess I simply want to understand how this is done as Im really not that stupid but this seemed to be pretty much impossible for me as I had never seen anything like it before and so I want to do it just to learn it if I can :rolleyes_anim:

[siniri]

In that case, I'll just post the guide I found here instead of PMing it. Here's the best one I found:

 

http://logic-puzzles.org/how-to-solve-a-logic-puzzle.php

 

I'm still going through it to see how thorough it is (several other guides I found left out vital problem-solving strategies).

[Breaziecat]

I wasn't paying attention through the whole thing - I just wanted the prizes...

[lianakos]

It's sad that we can't share our answers with the forum. It will really help same people that aren't this good with this types of problems (like myself). :P

 

Siniri, wow! That was a great way to help! I really like your post. Thank you!

[missjustina]

I got the pocket chess D:

If theres an avatar/trophy for a correct answer I'm probably not getting it :laughingsmiley:

[maikrowsoft]

Good luck peeps. If you having problems with JN's Grid just do what I did and open Excel, make a table and start sorting it out.

 

I did

 

 

Then marked out using Excel's cell styles, with Red highlights being No, Green being Yes, and Yellow being Plausible, deleting timings where not possible. Really easy once you get the first few :)

 

Really too bad they started deleting answers (even mine), you'd think they'd want to increase community spirit!

[teeniem55]

 

I honestly hope we get a trphy. Since we won't be getting one for daily dare I feel like this is needed. And since LEnny Conundrum might be gone, it would be a massive let down if we didn't have that last memorium of something like LC

 

I've been wondering about Daily Dare... Is Neopets no longer doing this challenge? Sorry, I've been away for a bit.

[BEE.]

I honestly have no idea what I am doing. I remembered to get every clue, just haven't paid much attention to this /:

 

EDIT: Thank you siniri for the link. That explains all :)

I really feel like I've seen a grid like this before, but I'm not sure where/when..

 

http://logic-puzzles.org/how-to-solve-a-logic-puzzle.php

 

I'm still going through it to see how thorough it is (several other guides I found left out vital problem-solving strategies).

Edited August 22, 2014 by BEE.

[AJ11]

In that case, I'll just post the guide I found here instead of PMing it. Here's the best one I found:

 

http://logic-puzzles.org/how-to-solve-a-logic-puzzle.php

 

I'm still going through it to see how thorough it is (several other guides I found left out vital problem-solving strategies).

Thankyou so much!

 

I will be giving this my full attention tomorrow when I have had some sleep and my head is a little more clear, really appreciate the trouble you went to :thumbsup:

[Koralis]

Well I tried to solve it myself, but I cracked and looked up the answers. I took a wrong turn somewhere and I really don't have time to find the mistake/start over, there are just too many things on my plate this weekend. Feeling a little guilty, but then I remind myself that it's just a game :whistle:

 

So I hope I wasn't misled with wrong answers, but I'll only have myself to blame if I was, time will tell.

[Wildbreeze]

Ugh, I'm having way too hard of a time with this. Every clue or idea I follow turns into a dead end. I don't care about finishing early... I hope I can finish at all. :/

 

Edit: I had overlooked a fairly obvious clue... Once I figured it out, the rest pretty much fell into place. :) I'm fairly confident about my answer.

[HomuraAkemiTheHero]

I've looked at all the clues and I couldn't exactly figure out who stole the Pocket Chess so I just chose the answers that seem to be most likely out of all the choices. Oh well if it's wrong if it's right then it's right. Hopefully we get prizes for trying to attempt to figure out who stole what.

[Fernael]

Here's maybe something that could help.

If there's a clue that stated about two diffrent methods ( eg. either A or B, not by A nor by B, out of A and B ) A is not using B, and A is not B, they are diffrent. So, if you are using a grid, immediately cross the box that connects them. Below is the example of the case.

 

Clue: The money was not stolen by the fat guy, nor by sneaking.

 

Conclusion:

1. The money was not stolen by the fat guy.

2. The money was not stolen by sneaking.

3. The fat guy did not stole by sneaking.

[darghon]

Oh god, I wasn't smart enough to deduce the answer, so I actually had to write code to process all hints to discover the answer...

resulting in 4 possible solutions (yes more than one)

Luckily the question at hand was the same in each solution, but still...

 

I hope others got other clues than me, because for me the Grand Speech Scroll, the Magical Blue Amulet, and the Pocket chess have 2 possible solutions each...

[leverhelven]

Here's maybe something that could help.

If there's a clue that stated about two diffrent methods ( eg. either A or B, not by A nor by B, out of A and B ) A is not using B, and A is not B, they are diffrent. So, if you are using a grid, immediately cross the box that connects them. Below is the example of the case.

 

Clue: The money was not stolen by the fat guy, nor by sneaking.

 

Conclusion:

1. The money was not stolen by the fat guy.

2. The money was not stolen by sneaking.

3. The fat guy did not stole by sneaking.

 

Hmmm, I'm not sure if number 3 can be deduced out of said clue :mellow: It's like I'm talking about, say, a Yellow Uni, and I say "The neopet is not red, nor a Nimmo". Indeed the neopet is not red, and the neopet is not a Nimmo, but there can be a Red Nimmo.

[decchild]

I ended up doing mine like maths probability trees after partially filling in the JN grid. Like if "A or B could've stolen C or D" I just used the rest of the clues to cross things out/eliminate. That's what helped me the most. Then I fudged things a bit by playing with times to find discrepancies.

I've turned my answer in, but I hate how long it's taking to find out which one is the right answer. Hmph.

[Dcoolb]

If anyone could help me with this grid, I'd appreciate it! Please contact me on Neo, my user is Faultfind, or on here is just fine. I've made progress on the grid, I just can't solve it. I've peaked, or at least I thought.

 

 

Actually, I figured it out! Was one minor detail, that blew it all open!!!

[Lessa]

Whoever got the Illuminated Menuscript is super lucky, that was seriously the easiest one to solve... :shiftyeyes_anim: I got the Pocket Chess :mellow: Hopefully my submission was right! :medieval:

[Chanii]

I have attempted filling out the logic grid on JN four times now and keep hitting contradictions that force me to restart. I normally love puzzles but this one's driving me crazy. xD I have a few questions I'd like to ask, if anyone who has solved the grid would be willing to PM me.

[Balance]

There are advantages to laying out the grid in a spreadsheet. I color-coded mine, switching colors each time I reached a major deduction or when I drew a conclusion I wasn't 100% sure about, so that it would be easy to backtrack. It's also easy to copy the whole grid to another sheet to pursue different chains of logic.

 

Oh god, I wasn't smart enough to deduce the answer, so I actually had to write code to process all hints to discover the answer...

resulting in 4 possible solutions (yes more than one)

Luckily the question at hand was the same in each solution, but still...

 

I hope others got other clues than me, because for me the Grand Speech Scroll, the Magical Blue Amulet, and the Pocket chess have 2 possible solutions each...

 

I don't think it was possible to miss any clues--you could get several in a row if you missed days--and there are enough clues to lock down every detail. You have to approach it iteratively--go over the clues, fill in the things they directly say in the grid, make what deductions you can from that, then go over the clues again and apply them to your deductions, then repeat. One of the most important things to note in this approach is the "before X" and "after X" clues; when you eliminate a time for event X, you often eliminate times for other events.

 

Example, assuming the same times as in the puzzle:

1. Z happens after X.
2. Y happens one hour after X.

 

Obviously, on our first pass of the clues, we know that neither Y nor Z could have happened at 12:00, and that X couldn't have happened at 5:00. Filling those in, we make another pass.

 

Second pass:

• Z had to happen after Y, and the earliest Y could happen is 1:00, so we can rule out 1:00 for Z.
• Knowing that two events happen after X means that we can also rule out 4:00 for X.

 

Examining the sequence was critical for me in working out the last two facts.

 

 

 

Hmmm, I'm not sure if number 3 can be deduced out of said clue :mellow: It's like I'm talking about, say, a Yellow Uni, and I say "The neopet is not red, nor a Nimmo". Indeed the neopet is not red, and the neopet is not a Nimmo, but there can be a Red Nimmo.

 

It's part of the customary structure for this sort of puzzle. Usually, it comes up when someone got a little careless in phrasing the clue, and meant to make it more clear. If a clue states that X is neither Y nor Z, it generally means that Y and Z are also mutually exclusive. It's not guaranteed, so the one time it came up in this puzzle was marked with a color code, but if you get stuck, it's the way to bet.

[Anillak]

Yay, this was fun. I got the Royal Telescope, but did the whole grid anyway. I got stuck, but then I used the clue "The Oasis Runners stole an item sometime before the guild who bribed a guard" the other way around and it helped a lot. Anyway, I can confirm answers on PM, if that's allowed :)

[AJ11]

In that case, I'll just post the guide I found here instead of PMing it. Here's the best one I found:

 

http://logic-puzzles.org/how-to-solve-a-logic-puzzle.php

 

I'm still going through it to see how thorough it is (several other guides I found left out vital problem-solving strategies).

well I spent a very long time learning all about these logic puzzles and the link was a huge help ..thanks again :D

 

It makes a lot more sense now that I see that there is a certain formula to these things, before reading the link about logic puzzles I had not realised that for example: one thief/group would steal one item, only one theft would take place at each time allotted, the thieves would use one way of thieving each , so as an example the PP group couldn't have stolen two items at 1 and 2 o'clock both times using invisibility and another group stole a different thing at 2 also using invisibility and using the sewers as well.

 

I was approaching it in a real life sense not realising that this is a set format.

 

It still fried my brain trying to do it and I still messed up my grid somehow as almost at the end I had a contradiction, but I am pretty confident that I could do it now if I had another go at it and I think I made a reasonable guess as I was lucky and got the illuminated menuscript (ducks to avoid people throwing things coz I was so lucky, and didnt even know it til now) :*

 

I may have another go at it just to see how I get on once my brain has unscrambled a little bit :sick02: