Let's talk about GAY MARRIAGE!

[Russ]

Okay, I'm honestly not sure how much of a debate there's even going to be because there's near-unanimous agreement on this topic on virtually every online community of which I have ever been a part, and I doubt that that'll be too different here... But whatever!

 

I personally think it's ~ludicrous~ that gays aren't allowed to get their marriage on in so many first-world countries. It's just ridiculous that outdated religious prejudices still play such a large part in how minorities are perceived in places that are supposed to be advanced, and downright disgusting that oppressing and dehumanizing these minorities is basically considered the norm.

 

Anybody strongly agree or disagree?

[Tank Girl]

I very strongly agree with this.

Even in places where they do allow gay marriage, it's tainted by the fact they call it a 'civil partnership', and not marriage! How can you say something's okay but then lump it into a different category and totally alienate the gay community by not allowing them to say they're married?!

 

UNFAIR.

[queensorchadragon]

Even though I am a Christian I really don't see why we raise such a big fuss about this. Part of what I believe is that Christians shouldn't force their beliefs on people who don't share them. My belief on gay marriage is that if I were gay I'd stay celibate, but I don't expect that of anyone else... ? I only get frustrated when people who call themselves Christians completely deny what's in the Bible about it. I certainly don't expect non-Christians to follow Christian beliefs. Government should remain secular.

[Tank Girl]

Even though I am a Christian I really don't see why we raise such a big fuss about this. Part of what I believe is that Christians shouldn't force their beliefs on people who don't share them. My belief on gay marriage is that if I were gay I'd stay celibate, but I don't expect that of anyone else... ? I only get frustrated when people who call themselves Christians completely deny what's in the Bible about it. I certainly don't expect non-Christians to follow Christian beliefs. Government should remain secular.

 

I think it's a little unrealistic to say you'd stay celibate if you were gay. If you were gay you probably wouldn't be a Christian because you would be an 'outcast' as it were, and therefore you would have totally different views on all of this.

 

Edit: When I say outcast I mean from your faith

[Squidmama]

:I I wish pigheaded people weren't in charge of things. Then, we wouldn't even have to call it gay marriage, we could just call it marriage and not one would stick their nose in anyone else business. It BLOWS my mind that those who 'follow' Christianity are so against it when one of the biggest things about that religion is love everyone and judge no one. I'm pretty sure Jesus would be cool with it. He sounds like a cool cat.

[Russ]

I think it's a little unrealistic to say you'd stay celibate if you were gay. If you were gay you probably wouldn't be a Christian because you would be an 'outcast' as it were, and therefore you would have totally different views on all of this.

 

Edit: When I say outcast I mean from your faith

 

Well that's a pretty big generalization. Some Christian communities are ignorant enough to believe that they shouldn't even allow homosexuals into their churches, and there are some pro-LGBT organizations that are entirely faith-based. I think it is a bit silly for someone to say "If I were gay then I'd stay celibate" but it's equally silly to say that a gay person wouldn't be a Christian.

 

And yeah, anyone who actually knows their stuff about Christianity knows that it really isn't a homophobic religion and certainly not one that says we should go around dehumanizing minorities.. I'm an atheist but I've always been fond of the following passage from Mark:

 

29 “The most important [commandment],” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

I think that Jesus specifically saying "Don't treat each other like ****, okay?" should be a bit more important than three random verses about same-sex relations (that are all completely irrelevant in context anyway).. but, unfortunately, it's easier for some people to point hate-filled fingers than to actually follow the tenets of their faith :/

[inkt]

As an out and proud LGBTQQ member, it's actually really nice to see this topic brought up on TDN. Love is love and I believe everybody has the right to celebrate marriage if they so choose to. Personally, I don't believe in marriage other than what tax benefits you get, but that's my personal opinion and in no way extends to the wants of other couples. Same sex and transgender (and others I've failed to mention) couples should have the same rights as cisgendered and straight individuals and I can't wait to see the day when there is acceptance for all regardless of race, religion, or sexual orientation.

 

Well that's a pretty big generalization. Some Christian communities are ignorant enough to believe that they shouldn't even allow homosexuals into their churches, and there are some pro-LGBT organizations that are entirely faith-based. I think it is a bit silly for someone to say "If I were gay then I'd stay celibate" but it's equally silly to say that a gay person wouldn't be a Christian.

 

And yeah, anyone who actually knows their about Christianity knows that it really isn't a homophobic religion and certainly not one that says we should go around dehumanizing minorities.. I'm an atheist but I've always been fond of the following passage from Mark:

 

29 “The most important [commandment],” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

I think that Jesus specifically saying "Don't treat each other like ****, okay?" should be a bit more important than three random verses about same-sex relations (that are all completely irrelevant in context anyway).. but, unfortunately, it's easier for some people to point hate-filled fingers than to actually follow the tenets of their faith :/

 

Agree 110%. There are many Christian churches that welcome LGBT members with opening arms. I just went to Pride a few days ago and there were quite a few gay-friendly churches marching in the parade.

 

Always a good point. Christianity is about loving everyone. Hate is not part of the religion in any way. People misinterpret these passages from the Bible. What most homophobes quote about man not lying with another man is not in regards to the common people at all! People that use this passage against the gay community have not studied the Bible. They have no clue what they're talking about.

 

 

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[Squidmama]

Yeah yeah, plus the verses the bible-thumpers use to hate on everyone with is usually in the old testiment. How many people actually give a flying hang what's in the old testament anyway unless their Jewish? If they can eat shellfish I should be allowed to make out with a chick. I have tons of Jewish friends and they always point out how its their part of the Torah and most of them don't care. I know a Rbabi who has boyfriend and no one in the community says anything neigitive about it. Its all sorta of rad.

[Tank Girl]

Well that's a pretty big generalization. Some Christian communities are ignorant enough to believe that they shouldn't even allow homosexuals into their churches, and there are some pro-LGBT organizations that are entirely faith-based. I think it is a bit silly for someone to say "If I were gay then I'd stay celibate" but it's equally silly to say that a gay person wouldn't be a Christian.

 

And yeah, anyone who actually knows their about Christianity knows that it really isn't a homophobic religion and certainly not one that says we should go around dehumanizing minorities.. I'm an atheist but I've always been fond of the following passage from Mark:

 

29 “The most important [commandment],” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

I think that Jesus specifically saying "Don't treat each other like ****, okay?" should be a bit more important than three random verses about same-sex relations (that are all completely irrelevant in context anyway).. but, unfortunately, it's easier for some people to point hate-filled fingers than to actually follow the tenets of their faith :/

 

Hence why I used the word probably . Outcast may have been a bit of a strong word, but I stand by what I said. I'm bisexual myself, and I just looked at the situation in an empathetic way. If my family or close friends were Christian and they believed certain things about 'my people', outcast is exactly how I would feel.

 

Though individually a lot of Christians are probably very nice people who just want everyone to get along and be happy, the religion in itself condemns gay relations and gay marriage, so that was why I generalised. Plus you never really hear about the good side of Christianity in the news; it's always 'God hates this' and 'you're a sinner', so I think that's why I'm slightly biased. I know the media shouldn't affect how I see a religion, but when I see a bunch of Christians on the TV at Soldiers funerals with 'God hates you' 'he's going to Hell' etc all over their banners it's difficult not to be biased! Those people are extremists, and I shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush - and I don't, most of the time. But this is something that gets right up my nose, and it literally drives me to tears sometimes when I think about how horrible some Christians are to gay people.

[Russ]

The verse that I most frequently see thrown around by bigots is Levicitus 18:22, the one about "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is abomination" or whatever. People usually ignore the Levitical laws about touching the skin of a pig, tattoos, round haircuts, clothing with mixed fibers and shellfish... but for some reason Leviticus matters when it's about gay people. Leviticus is full of stupid irrelevant laws that people don't even regard as worth acknowledging, but people love throwing around that one verse to justify their own prejudices. You can't pick and choose what verses matter and what ones don't; if people are going to get all whiny about love and equality based on Leviticus 18:22, then they should also go protest the local tattoo parlor.

 

Hence why I used the word probably :P. Outcast may have been a bit of a strong word, but I stand by what I said. I'm bisexual myself, and I just looked at the situation in an empathetic way. If my family or close friends were Christian and they believed certain things about 'my people', outcast is exactly how I would feel.

 

Though individually a lot of Christians are probably very nice people who just want everyone to get along and be happy, the religion in itself condemns gay relations and gay marriage, so that was why I generalised.

 

The problem is quite the opposite - the religion in itself doesn't really care much about whom you're porking in bed, but an unfortunately large number of Christians take it upon themselves to judge others for that.

 

(That isn't to imply that the majority of Christians are homophobes, of course. The majority of homophobes are Christians, at least in my experience, but obviously the inverse isn't true.)

 

 

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[inkt]

The verse that I most frequently see thrown around by bigots is Levicitus 18:22, the one about "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is abomination" or whatever. People usually ignore the Levitical laws about touching the skin of a pig, tattoos, round haircuts, clothing with mixed fibers and shellfish... but for some reason Leviticus matters when it's about gay people. Leviticus is full of stupid irrelevant laws that people don't even regard as worth acknowledging, but people love throwing around that one verse to justify their own prejudices. You can't pick and choose what verses matter and what ones don't; if people are going to get all whiny about love and equality based on Leviticus 18:22, then they should also go protest the local tattoo parlor.

 

Yupp. I love that all these people are out there watching football (men tackling other men, helloooo?) and getting their fashionable clothing and have the nerve to say homosexuality is wrong.

 

Also, you guys have probably already seen this, but I always think it's a fun read:

 

Top 10 Reasons Why Gay Marriage is UnAmerican

 

1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

[Tank Girl]

The problem is quite the opposite - the religion in itself doesn't really care much about whom you're porking in bed, but an unfortunately large number of Christians take it upon themselves to judge others for that.

 

(That isn't to imply that the majority of Christians are homophobes, of course. The majority of homophobes are Christians, at least in my experience, but obviously the inverse isn't true.)

 

I edited my post ;) Realised I should probably elaborate!

 

I totally agree there; but I'm sure if you asked 100 Athiests if they thought the Christian faith hated gay people, the majority would probably say yes. And I mean just the faith in general here, not the people who support it.

Unfortunately Christianity has got quite the reputation for being a hate community (if that makes sense) despite the messages of love and kindness the religion delivers. At least that is definitely the case over here in the UK, in my experience. Everyone I know despises Christians, I don't have a single Christian friend (not because I don't like Christians, but because there just aren't any!)

 

 

Top 10 Reasons Why Gay Marriage is UnAmerican

 

1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.

7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.

9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

 

Ahahaha that's brilliant! Made me giggle :P

[behati]

you can't exactly force Christians and those faiths who don't believe in gay marriage to believe in it either. they can choose what they want to believe in so yeah. i don't agree with people forcing those who don't want to believe in that stuff to believe in it. everyone has a limit yenno?

 

-blame the straight people for having gay babies.

[Russ]

you can't exactly force Christians and those faiths who don't believe in gay marriage to believe in it either. they can choose what they want to believe in so yeah. i don't agree with people forcing those who don't want to believe in that stuff to believe in it. everyone has a limit yenno?

 

-blame the straight people for having gay babies.

 

I agree to an extent, but their prejudices have no place in the law. If they have a problem with two dudes getting married then that's their deal, but the fact that some people think it's weird or wrong is no reason to outlaw it. There's a difference between opposing gay marriage and outlawing it. People shouldn't force their views upon others and denying same-sex couples equal rights is doing that.

[inkt]

I agree to an extent, but their prejudices have no place in the law. If they have a problem with two dudes getting married then that's their deal, but the fact that some people think it's weird or wrong is no reason to outlaw it. There's a difference between opposing gay marriage and outlawing it. People shouldn't force their views upon others and denying same-sex couples equal rights is doing that.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth. Separation of church and state apparently doesn't have any standing when it comes to equality.

[Naamah D.]

Love is love. Period. Regardless of what gender or race you are. So yes, gay marriage should be allowed. I feel like a lot of people in my life don't think it should be(I know my grandparents don't think so)but I am pro-gay rights. Opinions are opinions, ya know.

 

However, forcing what you believe onto people is terrible. I've had many things forced onto me and know what it's like.

[Squidmama]

But its not something to believe in. Homosexual people having the right to get married isn't Santa Claus or God. They are all humans and deserve all the rights we give to straight humans. The right to marriage in this case. Nothing burns my cookies more than saying "I don't beleive in Gay marriage." Really? There's fact and proof that it exists. Homosexual people aren't a theory, there's nothing to believe. You either are in someone else's business or your not. >:I I prefer if people were not.

[Vivies]

I am completely, totally, 100% for it. There are no legal reasons as to why it should not be allowed. It does not benefit society at all to outlaw it. It is not harmful to anyone's health.

 

Let the people marry--and eat cake!

[queensorchadragon]

All I was saying is that Christianity only calls for individuals to change themselves, not to change others by force, and that I won't require others to adhere to what I personally believe. I suppose if I actually were gay, then I would have a different perspective, and I can't say for sure what I would do, but currently I feel like if I were, I would feel compelled to remain celibate. I don't know for sure.

 

I have several (around 3 or so) gay friends who are Christian. Not all of them are (or plan on staying) celibate, nor do I judge them for that, it's not my place to judge anyone. As some people have mentioned, not all Christians are hate-mongers like the westboro baptist church (ugh, giving bad names to Christians everywhere).

 

As I said earlier, separation of church and state, I believe in it, churches shouldn't force the state to not allow gay marriage, and the state shouldn't force churches to perform gay marriages. (Some Christian churches do anyway, though they're few and far between)

[jcaitou]

Even though I am a Christian I really don't see why we raise such a big fuss about this. Part of what I believe is that Christians shouldn't force their beliefs on people who don't share them. My belief on gay marriage is that if I were gay I'd stay celibate, but I don't expect that of anyone else... ? I only get frustrated when people who call themselves Christians completely deny what's in the Bible about it. I certainly don't expect non-Christians to follow Christian beliefs. Government should remain secular.

 

100% percent agree. I'm a Christian too, but I don't think we should try and take over the world with our ideals.

[Squidmama]

On my walk I was thinking about this. If I was a dude who was really a chick and got reassignment surgery and married a man would I be allowed to in a state that outlaws same sex marriage? If I was a woman who got her chest reconstructed and identified as a man and married a woman would that be allowed? Its a slippery slope when we try and decide what is what like that.

[inkt]

On my walk I was thinking about this. If I was a dude who was really a chick and got reassignment surgery and married a man would I be allowed to in a state that outlaws same sex marriage? If I was a woman who got her chest reconstructed and identified as a man and married a woman would that be allowed? Its a slippery slope when we try and decide what is what like that.

 

It depends on the state, but most states allow a transgendered man to marry a biological woman and a transgendered woman to marry a biological man. I know that here, for a transgendered man, they must have had top surgery and be on hormone therapy and for a transgendered woman, they must have had top AND bottom surgery and be on hormones as well. I'm not quite sure what you mean by it being a slippery slope.

[Squidmama]

I have to fill a daily quota of using the phrase slippery slope. XD *shot* I meant like where would we draw the line 'cause genders aren't black and white as they were, if they were ever.

 

That's fascinating! I had no idea states would even think about that. That is so cool! I wonder why women have to have both surgeries? I mean, female to male surgery is a tad more complicated that male to female. But that makes me so happy knowing that most states allow that! How would they confirm that though? I need to do more research about this topic, my interests are so peaked!

[inkt]

I have to fill a daily quota of using the phrase slippery slope. XD *shot* I meant like where would we draw the line 'cause genders aren't black and white as they were, if they were ever.

 

That's fascinating! I had no idea states would even think about that. That is so cool! I wonder why women have to have both surgeries? I mean, female to male surgery is a tad more complicated that male to female. But that makes me so happy knowing that most states allow that! How would they confirm that though? I need to do more research about this topic, my interests are so peaked!

 

Hahah, that's alright. It is quite a touchy subject. Hopefully marriage will soon be legal for all human beings that are of age and capable of making the decision themselves.

 

Indeed. It kind of sucks about the restrictions on it, though. Surgery is expensive and painful, and not all transpersons wish to have surgery or hormone treatment. So they are still being denied their civil rights. Male to female have to have both surgeries because they are nearly perfected. Female to male bottom surgery is in no way perfected and many times, the result is completely unsatisfactory. I believe they confirm this either through physical examinations or a surgeon's/doctor's written statement.

[khaos]

I don't think it should be allowed. Bisexuality included.

 

Like someone here said, a child cant succeed without a male and female role model.

 

I am a Christian myself and I believe in God fully. In my opinion, homos are not Christians, no matter what they say.

 

I also don't think it should be allowed that a gendered person would have surgery to become that other gender. Though you don't really become another gender, you gain the outside qualities of one. A male should be happy to be a male and a female should be happy to be a female.

 

That is all. :mellow: