Criticism in the Art Community.

[ThroughMyEyes]

As an artist, I've asked myself this question for a long time. What do you all think? Do you think it's right/acceptable for artists with more developed skills to criticize those with lesser artistic skills? If you've ever seen this happen, how did you react?

[brynchilla]

I wish there was a 'it depends' answer.
Just plain criticism with telling what is wrong, usually shouting (also known as flaming) is wrong.

If it's constructive criticism that not only tells what is wrong but also how it can be improved upon is okay.

 

You're not going to get better if people just throw flowers at you and say all is good.

You need people to be critical about your work (but you'll need to be able to know when to draw the line) if you want to improve.

Feed back is valuable.

Good feed back is amazing.

 

Although I'm not in the art community, I am in the writing community and it can be applied to both groups.

Sometimes to get better, you need to have your work completely torn apart so you can see what you need to improve on.

[HomuraAkemiTheHero]

I don't think a greater artist should criticize a artist with lesser skills negatively. Because I'm sure that over time artists have gotten better at drawing then they were a year or 2 ago. The only time I think it would be ok if it was positive criticism meaning that they pointed out something wrong in the artwork but pointed out what they did good with and recommended ideas on how to improve and be a better artist. One of my English teachers had always have us write what was good and some negatives that we may have noticed in a another student's writing and also how they can improve so they can achieve a higher level in writing and she had told us it was the same with almost any sort of skill like drawing,cooking,painting etc. So really it depends on what someone says. To be honest I haven't seen a more skilled artist criticize a artist with lesser skills then them so I can't say much about that.

[brynchilla]

You do need to balance out the bad with the good. If you drag on with what the artists did that was wrong or you didn't like, the artists is either going to get discouraged or just stop listening. And then you're just talking to air. But just good stuff and when someone says something bad, it will hurt worse because the artists might have thought it was the best.

 

My education teacher has 2 stars and a moon. 2 things you thought were really good, and 1 thing that needs to be worked on.

[alola9]

I think it depends on the situtaion, if the less skilled artist aks for criticism in this case, then I think it's totally fine. But in general, just starting to criticise without asking permission and being very negative about it is not okay. One can spend a lot of time on an art piece, and then suddenly someone says something that's supposed to be "constructive criticism" might just ruin the artist's mood, or maybe not depending on the artist's attitude. I have a few friends in the art community (and I am as well), and I've only seen this situation happen once, but the commenter was very nice about it and the artist thanked them for the advice. So I guess it's just how the artist will see their criticism.

[SillySilenia]

It depends highly on the situation. If someone posts their art on a site that is geared towards rating it, feedback, reviews and criticism, or places it anywhere with a request for feedback, then yes, provided it's done in an appropriate way. (Read: "Th1s suxxx! d0 u relly thnk diz = g00d art????!!!?!!?!?!" is not it. Nor is "This looks, frankly speaking, like it was drawn by a three-year-old, dear. Just take a look at this* art to see what it should look like" (* invariably drawn by the critic or a friend of theirs). On the other hand, "You mentioned you were looking for feedback. While I can certainly see what you were going for, the effect of it is somewhat undone by some mistakes you made with the anatomy and perspective, I'm sad to say. You mentioned that you felt something was a bit off with the face. While true, it's pretty minor and easily fixed--the left eye should be a little bit further away from the nose. Otherwise, the arms could use some fixing. By drawing them the way you did under this angle, the left arm gives off the appearance of being twice as long as the right arm. If you want, I can link you to a few tutorials on perspective and anatomy that I found were a great help when I ran into things like this." is pretty valid criticism and actually points out what to fix and to some degree, how. Even if the tone is a bit pedantic.)

 

Out of the blue when posted somewhere that's not geared towards feedback/rating/criticism, and without a request for feedback, then no, under most circumstances it's not. Similarly, if someone posts it on a site that is geared towards it, but points out they don't want criticism on the piece (for example, it's an old piece that they've posted to contrast with their current pieces to show their progress), then it would also be best to refrain.

[brynchilla]

I think it depends on the situation, if the less skilled artist ask for criticism in this case, then I think it's totally fine. But in general, just starting to criticize without asking permission and being very negative about it is not okay. One can spend a lot of time on an art piece, and then suddenly someone says something that's supposed to be "constructive criticism" might just ruin the artist's mood, or maybe not depending on the artist's attitude. I have a few friends in the art community (and I am as well), and I've only seen this situation happen once, but the commenter was very nice about it and the artist thanked them for the advice. So I guess it's just how the artist will see their criticism.

 

In cases like that, I think we need to look at both the artists and the criticism that was given.

As I said above, I'm more in the writing community, but I think we can relate criticism from both together, so I'm going to do that.

 

I was on a fanfiction community, when I stumbled upon a.. well, a... okay, a rather badly written story. I jumped into the reviews to see what was going on. While there were a few that were just 'you suck' or 'this is terrible, are you a troll?' the majority were well written reviews that pointed out both good points as well as bad points and how they could be improved on. Then I noticed there was a note on the last chapter that said they would no longer be continuing because of all the terrible reviews, and everyone is horrible and look you drove me away.

 

I think we need to take a step back here and asses the situation. People are going to get negative comments. Compared to the positive, there were a lot more positive than negative. Sometimes I think people can be a bit too sensitive towards any criticism and shut down when any non-positive things is given. The artists isn't going to get anywhere if the only thing they'll take is compliments and praise. It could give them a false sense of how good they are.

[Aquamentis12]

There's honesty, and then there's brutal honesty. I've got a truckload to learn so I can improve. But when I look at/review someone's art, I always try to be honest, but positive. I mean, sure, nobody likes less-than-stellar feedback, but if nobody voices suggestions, or asks a question about a line that may have them wondering, then that person may not see it and miss out on a place they could improve. I would never say "That's awful" or, "YIKES! Did the cursor explode?!". I do, however, try to be fair and encouraging in my reviews/comments. Because I would hope people would be fair with me. Anyone who's read my thread on the art gallery, knows I talk a bit about not having had any art/animation lessons, and that I'm basically experimenting as I go. I've had people come down on a few pieces, though not on TDN Forums. lol But in the past, and it's not easy, defending why I would do something that at first may seem odd to them.

One example, I remember high school art class, I did a water color with an almost blindingly bright full Moon. We had to take critiques in front of class, and defend our work. Nobody except the teacher seemed to understand that if you see a full moon, with a clear sky, and it being Winter, that the reflected light from the moon alone, can light up the earth enough to see decently without a flashlight, or whatever. Anyway, I think the viewer should try to figure out the artist's perspective on a piece. I usually try to have a bit of info like that in a description of a piece. I feel and hope that it can save time and misunderstandings about a piece. ;)

 

Saying to someone "You've got a long way to go." (another thing I've heard personally) is really pretty bad thinking imho. Reviewers shouldn't be so discouraging. *shrug* But that's life, some people will think, and some people won't think. I'll be honest with someone, but I'm not about to beat 'em over the head with it. ;)

[SillySilenia]

[...]I mean, sure, nobody likes less-than-stellar feedback, [...]

Do for the most part agree with your post, except for the excerpt I've quoted above. I tend to, in most situations, actually prefer less-than-stellar feedback over suspiciously-stellar feedback--provided, that is, that the person giving me the less-than-stellar critique/feedback is specific. "This sucks" helps absolutely no one. "This sucks: the left eye is about twice the size of the right, her right hand's fingers look like sausages, does she have some disfigurement in her face or do you just suck at drawing lips? Oh, and her (female chest attributes) seem to be about two cupsizes apart." is highly rude and not critique/feedback I'd ever leave someone, but I'd nonetheless prefer it over "Oh my! This is sooo kawaiiiii! Cuuuute! You're a-ma-zing at drawing! This is absolutely peeerrrrfect!" on a piece I've left up for feedback somewhere. Especially when I know something is off, regardless of if I know exactly what.

But that's just me.

 

Of course, (specific) constructive criticism is preferred above all else, but in absence of it, if I'm looking for feedback, I'll take destructive criticism--provided it has its base in facts--above generic kissing-of-my-behind.

[Aquamentis12]

Do for the most part agree with your post, except for the excerpt I've quoted above. I tend to, in most situations, actually prefer less-than-stellar feedback over suspiciously-stellar feedback--provided, that is, that the person giving me the less-than-stellar critique/feedback is specific. "This sucks" helps absolutely no one. "This sucks: the left eye is about twice the size of the right, her right hand's fingers look like sausages, does she have some disfigurement in her face or do you just suck at drawing lips? Oh, and her (female chest attributes) seem to be about two cupsizes apart." is highly rude and not critique/feedback I'd ever leave someone, but I'd nonetheless prefer it over "Oh my! This is sooo kawaiiiii! Cuuuute! You're a-ma-zing at drawing! This is absolutely peeerrrrfect!" on a piece I've left up for feedback somewhere. Especially when I know something is off, regardless of if I know exactly what.

But that's just me.

 

Of course, (specific) constructive criticism is preferred above all else, but in absence of it, if I'm looking for feedback, I'll take destructive criticism--provided it has its base in facts--above generic kissing-of-my-behind.

 

lol Good points. I said that to illustrate that some people can be pretty devastated if feedback isn't ALL positives. I know a couple of people like that that can be, well, rather dramatic when being reviewed or critiqued. Personally, I'd rather get everything right the first time too, but I know and accept my mistakes and limitations. Doesn't mean they don't irritate me when there's something I can't get quite right. lol But I also know that I have a lot to learn and I realize what holds me back at times. I don't mind constructive criticism, like you said, it can be VERY helpful. Though only if it works with your vision of the final project. ;) LOL Sometimes though, it can be good to be stubborn, especially when it comes to a specific piece. ~_^ Setbacks stink. As far as stellar-feedback. It's nice, but I'm quick to point out the flaws either in the description or in the comments.

Destructive criticism? Like I said, you have a good point, but it's hard to follow advice if it's delivered intentionally destructively. LOL Stubbornness can ALSO be a hindrance in such cases, because, at least sometimes, it can become a matter of Pride. That being said, "Pride carried too far is foolishness." ;)

 

Above, I referenced being told that I had a "Long way to go". This was someone who was apparently "in the biz" from NYC, that was looking at some of my sketches, Oh, about 2009, maybe 2010. Now, while it was overall GOOD to hear that I needed to keep practicing, it was not easy to hear someone I had just met, say that to me. It did hit pretty hard. He then started making a few suggestions. Instead of my redraws, (redrawing an image by sight) he recommended I TRACE pictures/screenshots. Well, that's strictly against my views on plagiarism. I'll redraw something, but always give credit to the source and state that it is a redraw. Another thing he mentioned was varying my line-thickness. Something a late friend, and local master (imho) artist advised me to do. I've been able to do that a bit more. 3rdly, he suggested I stop blend-shading all-together. Apparently hashing and cross-hashing is the style. To that, it's a matter of preference, I really don't like using hashmarks, regular or cross-wise, much. I prefer softer shading. Anyway, my pride did indeed take a blow. But with a day or so.... Yes, for sulking a bit and letting the feedback sink in, I was back sketching again. Since then, there HAVE been a number of times in my practicing where I really doubt the chances exist for me to get up to a really good skill level. Even back then I never denied I needed more practice, but hearing someone in the know give me that review was pretty hard on me at the time. He didn't say anything that wasn't true, but his delivery could've been a bit more constructive and reinforcing.

 

It does depend on the people involved. The artist AND the reviewer, and how they choose or are able to handle their parts. I think I grew from my experience, a friend of mine I mentioned this story to, wasn't so sure that THEY could if it had happened to them. Unless you know the person, it's something that I think ANY reviewer should keep in mind when reviewing someone's art. Especially if you don't know someone, their level or how they'll react. A little kindness when suggesting improvements will never hurt as bad. Be kind, but be honest. ;)

[SillySilenia]

 

lol Good points. I said that to illustrate that some people can be pretty devastated if feedback isn't ALL positives. I know a couple of people like that that can be, well, rather dramatic when being reviewed or critiqued. Personally, I'd rather get everything right the first time too, but I know and accept my mistakes and limitations. Doesn't mean they don't irritate me when there's something I can't get quite right. lol But I also know that I have a lot to learn and I realize what holds me back at times. I don't mind constructive criticism, like you said, it can be VERY helpful. Though only if it works with your vision of the final project. ;) LOL Sometimes though, it can be good to be stubborn, especially when it comes to a specific piece. ~_^ Setbacks stink. As far as stellar-feedback. It's nice, but I'm quick to point out the flaws either in the description or in the comments.

Destructive criticism? Like I said, you have a good point, but it's hard to follow advice if it's delivered intentionally destructively. LOL Stubbornness can ALSO be a hindrance in such cases, because, at least sometimes, it can become a matter of Pride. That being said, "Pride carried too far is foolishness." ;)

 

Above, I referenced being told that I had a "Long way to go". This was someone who was apparently "in the biz" from NYC, that was looking at some of my sketches, Oh, about 2009, maybe 2010. Now, while it was overall GOOD to hear that I needed to keep practicing, it was not easy to hear someone I had just met, say that to me. It did hit pretty hard. He then started making a few suggestions. Instead of my redraws, (redrawing an image by sight) he recommended I TRACE pictures/screenshots. Well, that's strictly against my views on plagiarism. I'll redraw something, but always give credit to the source and state that it is a redraw. Another thing he mentioned was varying my line-thickness. Something a late friend, and local master (imho) artist advised me to do. I've been able to do that a bit more. 3rdly, he suggested I stop blend-shading all-together. Apparently hashing and cross-hashing is the style. To that, it's a matter of preference, I really don't like using hashmarks, regular or cross-wise, much. I prefer softer shading. Anyway, my pride did indeed take a blow. But with a day or so.... Yes, for sulking a bit and letting the feedback sink in, I was back sketching again. Since then, there HAVE been a number of times in my practicing where I really doubt the chances exist for me to get up to a really good skill level. Even back then I never denied I needed more practice, but hearing someone in the know give me that review was pretty hard on me at the time. He didn't say anything that wasn't true, but his delivery could've been a bit more constructive and reinforcing.

 

It does depend on the people involved. The artist AND the reviewer, and how they choose or are able to handle their parts. I think I grew from my experience, a friend of mine I mentioned this story to, wasn't so sure that THEY could if it had happened to them. Unless you know the person, it's something that I think ANY reviewer should keep in mind when reviewing someone's art. Especially if you don't know someone, their level or how they'll react. A little kindness when suggesting improvements will never hurt as bad. Be kind, but be honest. ;)

You make some good points here. The drama-queen tendency is one seen across all creative communities, by the way--I certainly come across it as much on writing-related sites or photography-sites or [fill-in-any-other-form-of-creativity]-sites just as much as in the art community. It tends to annoy me to no end if people like that add their works to sites based around the premise of rating/reviewing/giving feedback, and doubly so when not only they respond with a lot of drama but also spew a lot of vitriol and make their Loyal Fankittens "hunt down" and flame/ridicule/troll the one who ( :O) dared ( :O) say something negative about their work. Even if it's just pointing out that [the writer accidentally duplicated a sentence mid-chapter/the image is a bit large for the forum they're on and could they please resize it and/or link to the fullsized version/the image may be better off saved in a different format than .bmp/the animation looks to be missing a frame/etc.] After all, Ms. Drama Queen is Perfect and obviously anyone who dares think otherwise is a troll/flamer/idiot/add-similar.

 

Not only do they cause unnecessarily much drama and pain that way, but it also has turned off a lot of people from giving thoughtful feedback/advice. After all, if you can basically become the target of a smear-campaign for daring to suggest a duplicate sentence might not belong in a chapter, why would you even spend any effort trying to explain more serious issues with someone's work?

 

As a result, the Drama Queens ruin things for those of us who would like actual feedback.

 

Oh, I know that I am one of the very few who's quite willing to honestly thank a reviewer/feedback-giver/etc. who was being purposefully nasty. Though I do, depending on the severity of their nastiness, occasionally slip in a superficially-polite barb along the lines of "It is, however, a pity that you seem to not yet have found a way to point out serious flaws in a work without giving off the appearance of bitterness" or similar. Then again, I have a remarkably thick skin and there's very little that's malicious or destructive that I haven't heard used against me at some point (thank you, approx. ten years of being bullied), and after that, well, ollie-bollie-trollies hiding behind their computer-screen don't really manage to get even just through the upper layer of that skin.

 

Regarding the tracing... provided you use it solely as a training tool and do not actually pretend to anyone that it's your work--after all, it isn't, you're just playing "human xerox machine"--there isn't anything wrong with it as such. Unfortunately, as a result of it being you-playing-copy-machine, neither is it a piece you can ask for feedback on, so it's really not quite that useful as a training tool beyond the most basic stages of drawing particular shapes.

 

Certainly, I would always recommend giving advice that is at the utter least polite, respectful of the artist/writer/etc. and constructive. Not necessarily nice, but a lot depends on the delivery and being needlessly harsh is just as much disrespectful and impolite as swearing. I do acknowledge that just because I am capable of working with destructive criticism and can ignore the barbs doesn't mean everyone can (nor should they be able to, really, because the few others I've met that are pretty much the same also went through some really bad times. Human skin doesn't grow as thick as an elephant's naturally, after all...), and that unless someone has openly expressed to be welcoming even brutally harsh feedback, it generally is a really bad idea to point out anything that could possibly seen as a flaw, either. Focus on either the most serious issues or if you feel those are beyond the artist's current-and-near-future reach, the highest-importance issues within their reach. If a piece is an absolute mess, allude to the fact that there are more issues than those you've mentioned but that you feel that the ones you've mentioned are the most important (for now).

 

(As to your artistic ability, I wouldn't be able to tell since I have to the best of my knowledge never seen any work of yours)

[96037]

I wish there was a 'it depends' answer.

Just plain criticism with telling what is wrong, usually shouting (also known as flaming) is wrong.

If it's constructive criticism that not only tells what is wrong but also how it can be improved upon is okay.

 

You're not going to get better if people just throw flowers at you and say all is good.

You need people to be critical about your work (but you'll need to be able to know when to draw the line) if you want to improve.

Feed back is valuable.

Good feed back is amazing.

 

Although I'm not in the art community, I am in the writing community and it can be applied to both groups.

Sometimes to get better, you need to have your work completely torn apart so you can see what you need to improve on.

 

 

I share the exact same feelings, but with the exception of one thing. I believe generally, one should only offer criticism if it is asked for. If it isn't, then even if there were good intentions at heart, it may not be taken that way.

[jellysundae]

I voted yes, because as a lot of others have already stated; constructive criticism is valuable and is how people improve. But I know from personal experience that some artists aren't willing to accept any kind of criticism, no matter how tactfully worded, but hopefully they are in the minority. I'm talking about pixelists that I used to work with, now maybe it's because they made items for an avatar site so they let their egos run away with them a little, because site users in general will react to new items with variations of, "OMG that's awesome", regardless of how good/bad the item actually is, so pretty much all our pixelists became dreadful divas who thought everything they every produced was utterly fantastic.

 

My timezone did me no favours because WIPs of new items would be posted for the staff to see while I was offline, and be received with various levels of that "OMG that's awesome" pointless and unhelpful reaction by the mods. I'd repeatedly offend the pixelists by getting online later and given constructive crits that highlighted numerous issues with the item, which made me look like a total biznatch after everyone else said it was amazing -.- This is why I'll fight every time for people's right to give genuine and polite constructive crits.

 

There's always going to be a percentage of people out there who post stuff online just because they want people to tell them it's amazing, and get all offended when others are less than flattering about it, but that's only to be expected, isn't it. I've seen this on sites and I've looked at a person's art and wondered how they can possibly think it's good and expect praise, and then get upset at the negative reactions, because it's really not good stuff. But usually the people who do this are very young, right? So it's part of the whole learning process, in a few years they'll look back with embarrassment at the dreadful art they posted, and at their freaking out at people's reactions.

 

For the people who post stuff and don't want crits, yeah, I agree that people should respect that. If you make an assumption from that that a person is only wanting praise, so what, you know? It's no skin off your nose.

[twilight790]

Constructive criticism is completely okay! That is how the art community works. I watched a presentation on "Developing your vision" and he said that you should take what people say to heart, but if you truly believe in your vision, it is okay to ignore their comments and opinions. You have to pick and choose what you take seriously and you can't let the criticism discourage you. I am a singer, graphic designer, photographer, and play numerous instruments. When you hit a wall, you need someone else to take a look at you and tell you what they think so you can develop your skill and vision further.