What EXACTLY is the problem?

[KristiYaYa]

I'll tread lightly here because I don't want to upset anyone. There are some questions that must be universal concerning the lag time. Hopefully someone will address them in a REAL and intelligent manner.

 

My proposed answers are not intended to offend anyone. They are based on problem solving analysis. The answer lies somewhere in this list or this problem would have been solved by now.

 

1. What is causing the delay in getting Neopets back to peak operation. It operated faster when there were far more users.

a) a lack of skilled programmers?

b) a lack of funds to get skilled programmers?

c) a lack of skilled management?

d) a lack of motivation/interest?

e) all of the above

[siniri]

The problem is that they moved Terabytes of data, and there was inevitably some corruption. It is literally billions of lines of code written nearly continuously over 16 years, with numerous staff changes (very few, if any, of the original programmers are still there) and dozens of protocols (the official, standard ones for the internet, not TNT-specific ones -- it's likely that TNT's programming conventions and practices have changed over the years, too -- if they even had many standards in the early years). So when they try to fix something, it can break something else.

 

The first move was so corrupted, they had to repeat part of it and start over. I think people are underestimating the size and complexity of the problem. It's not like trying to find a needle in a haystack. It's more like trying to find a hundred needles in all the haystacks on earth, without the aid of a magnet.

 

I'm frustrated, too. I'm sure none of us are nearly as frustrated as the programmers trying to solve it. I believe that they have skilled programmers, probably a few extra on temporary assignment from Jump Start. Enough? Well, the more people you have mucking around, the more they might actually break things worse... I'm not sure management can make them work faster. I think they've got the priorities right, and their current method of working on it, with occasional downtimes at night when needed, is working. I know some people say they'd rather they take the site down for longer and fix it, but I'm not sure that would really help them fix it faster. I'm sure they're highly motivated to solve this, so they can work on new content and keep their jobs.

 

Updating old code is probably one of those things on the to-do list that never actually happens. Now they're being forced to do it. It's taking a long time, but the site might actually end up working much better -- and be ready to move in exciting new directions -- once it's done. If there's anyone left to enjoy it by the time they finish...

[Aboogala]

Oi. Idk what problem solving analysis you're using but you just basically compiled a list of what everyone else has already speculated is wrong with the website and I don't see how that problem solved anything.

 

Clearly, it's all of that list and more. Programming, as my MINIMAL understanding of it and what little I've actually done building my own website for fun in high school, isn't an exact science the same way mechanics and medicine aren't an exact science. There is no forumula, though they try but more trial and error. So if "this" doesn't work we try "that" and if "that" doesn't work then we try "this that" - get it?

 

Here's a snipit of what it's like to code ANYTHING, down to something as simple as a petpage: This page hasn't been updated since 2000 but I need to insert this DATE because it's wrong. Submit. Hmmm Need to update the code because that just made the whole page HTML coding but it isn't showing the effects. Alright, fixed. Submit. Oh, no. What's this? Dang, something is wrong. Well, the code was old so let's update it, yes this should fix the problem. Submit. No, drat! Ok, what else did I not touch? Maybe that's it? Oh maybe it's this little script right here... oh crap that just messed up blah blah blah, ok, well let's but this script back and yes, that fixed that. Ok so clearly it's not that script...."

 

Wash, Rinse, Repeat until everything works. As you can see it could take ages to find and/or fix the problem with just a petpage! This is what is causing the whole "fix one thing, another thing breaks" phenomenon that has everyone pointing fingers saying "you suck at programming/coding. You should be fired."

 

With so much going wrong, people aren't playing and that breaks down to a simple equation. Less players = less page views, ad clicks and premium /NC mall users (all things that fund the website). So therefore, no players = no funds = no programmers/employees = no website = no players. It's a vicious cycle.

 

The next obstacle comes management as you say, management has to approve over time, which would mean that if there is no budget, because no funds to pay programmers overtime the programmers will work for 8 hours and then go home. But the internet is 24/7 and these are people not machines and as such they need to eat/sleep/have a life just like you and me. So you know what gets done in 8 hours with no approved OT and no budget to pay OT? Nothing to very little over a loooonnngggg period of time because holidays and weekends have a different pay rate and most companies have a strict no overtime policy so once you've clocked your 40 hours you go home. Want JumpStart to start paying over time for programmers to work more and get more stuff done? Stop canceling preimum, click some ads, buy some NC and PLAY ON NEOPETS. You could fire your management team but that will actually cost you more time, money and resources that you could just re-direct and save time and money. So that's not the answer.

 

I doubt JumpStart, which is a major company, bought Neopets without knowing it's flaws. Assuming this would be poor business practice and JumpStart didn't get so big by making mistakes. They did the research and in selling the website Nick had to use full disclosure. They had to say what problems and how bad they were - you can't sell a lemon to anyone and JumpStart and every other interested party probably poked around. JumpStart knew what they were getting into but no one can anticipate when things are going to go wrong or just how wrong they are going to go. There are no medical check ups or oil changes for a website, you just have to wait until it breaks before you know anything is wrong and that never really gives you a clue of how to fix it. The things that are happening to neopets could happen to ANY website. Target, Walmart, Facebook, Instagram, ect. Doesn't mean they don't have an interest in fixing it, just means things take awhile. It's not rocket science but it's not easy either. If it were, you or I could sit down in notepad, write it up and e-mail it to them and expect a thank you note.

 

Everyone is frustrated with this; no doubt TNT and everyone in customer service over there would love NOTHING MORE than for this stuff to be over with and back to dealing with "my NC didn't credit" and "why am I frozen?" issues. I am positive they would like to work on getting KeyQuest back together (token from the NC Mall bring in those dollars they need to keep the lights on) and they would love to spend board meetings debating on whether or not to have yet another plot involving Dr. Sloth instead of "how can we improve the site lag?" meetings. I can assure you that multiple people have been reprimanded and probably a few quit or were fired or are at least on the brink of it. I worked for a company where they fired all the programmers for not doing a job they were paid to do and complete on-time. Want to know what happened? I lost my job as a CSR because no programmers = no website and no website = no use for me since it was my job to handle all website issues, complaints and orders. So just be glad that hasn't happened.

 

Does that in any way make it clear or easy to understand what exactly the problem is?

[Anime]

I wrote a fairly lengthy post over here about why the server move is such a train wreck. I won't copy it over since it's all right there for easy viewing, but I will highlight one of my points from it and expand it.

 

The main thing people need to understand, beyond the actual logistics of a server move, is how heavily corporate interference likely played into this. Server moves are an inherently nasty process, and the bigger, older, and more interactive a site is, the worse they get. Even a small site or set of sites is likely to encounter some issues move servers. Take for example TDN and Ian's other Bumpwire sites. We recently had some server shifting to accommodate growing users on one of his other sites and there were a few small hiccups there. Now, they were fixed quickly because these are inherently smaller sites with the original programmers still on the team, but there were issues nonetheless. So, how did corporate interfere? Simple: No programmer or engineer or anyone actually working with a site on a regular basis that is in their right mind would have used this timescale for moving. The best (not perfect, but best) way to move a site of this sheer scope would be to do it a bit at a time.

 

To illustrate: First move all the static parts of the site over a bit at a time, and make sure they're working, then connect that part to the live site and see if they stand up to the weight of use. Let's say we did the flash games first (the game code is inherently static, but they get a lot of daily use from a lot of people so that's a good place to start). You move, eh, let's say all of the Puzzle games over to the new server, have the staff test them and iron out a few bugs. Then you set that version of those games as what the live site uses- and whoa massive lag clearly something's up. So you put those back on the old server (which is still functional!) and use the data you got to figure out some issues, fix them, hook it up and- oh hey, this works fine! On to the next! And so on and so forth, likely with small teams working on different sections in tandem. Then when all the static stuff is over- let's say, roughly, everything except the things you edit directly (lookups and petpages, ect), anything that's always changing (shops, stocks, ect), and of course the user data itself- THEN you take the site down for a few days, transfer all that over, run some tests, and then go live with hopefully a largely functional site. There are still going to be some problems, of course, but it's far better than what it could be.

 

So given this idealized version of a server move, let's compare to how it actually went down. First, the userbase was given roughly a week's heads up that we'd be moving. So that's a red flag that things are going to be quick and dirty. Then everything was moved, all at once, as fast as possible. And then TNT lost access to the old servers and the site went live in all its untested glory. And as anyone with any cursory knowledge or experience with computers can tell you, that went about as well as expected- the site was basically non-functional at this point. So they had to take it down and fix some things and set it live again. Over and over and over till it's all fixed. Because like Aboogala said- they can't just take the site down. No site = no money = no jobs. So we get stuck in this cycle of "down for a bit" -> "back up, is it better?" -> "okay what else broke" -> "okay let's fix that". And that's not even accounting for the fact that every time a game breaking glitch pops up (item dupes, mysteriously vanishing NP, ect) they have to take people off general leg hunting and put them on hastily patching that. And then you have to go check on it after every. single. change. to be sure your patch wasn't suddenly broken by whatever changed.

 

So, to sum up that lovely ramble there, corporate- likely Viacom more than anything- forced a fast server flip and that caused the bulk of the huge issues. So if you want someone to blame (and judging by your list there I think you do), blame them. The situation reeks of an unchangeable command that came down from higher ups with no computer experience. This was one of the worst possible set ups for a site to transition on, but from the financial standpoint of the previous owner? Well, the faster Neo's off their servers (since they're no longer making Viacom money), the faster they can put other stuff on them. Is it a horrible way to do things? Yup. But that's corporate America for you.

[KristiYaYa]

I learned long ago: When taking a test, if "All of the above." is a choice, it is most likely the correct answer. Thank you all for confirming that e) All of the above was the correct answer.

 

Just one more thing - "They shoot horses, don't they?"

[siniri]

I believe my answer was f) none of the above. I think most of the others would have fallen under the same thing.

 

No idea what the horse reference means, sorry.

[the_microwave]

Thanks everyone for the great explanations - I had some vague understanding before, but this thread helped to clarify things in nice simple terms. :) I really feel for TNT - this must be the biggest pain ever to deal with, and I suppose some people out there are...less than understanding about it, heh.

[zhao]

Answer is that neopets is dying. THey arent making money so they can't hire people. Im guessing one guy is trying to fix the problem all by himself. And he probably isn't getting well compensated. Neopets need to get revamped..

[Shane for Wax]

Answer is that neopets is dying. THey arent making money so they can't hire people. Im guessing one guy is trying to fix the problem all by himself. And he probably isn't getting well compensated. Neopets need to get revamped..

I would really love how you deduced that. If it were dying, they wouldn't be having issues with how many of us are on the site. Also, there has never been just one person working on something. There's no way. And they're most certainly making enough money for companies to want to buy it, and we keep buying premium and NC. Oh and don't forget ads, for those of us who don't block them out of necessity (there are too many flashy gifs and they make my head hurt)

 

I already wrote about the various issues going on in about three different threads so I won't rehash here you'll just all have to find the posts on your own. The short answer is: we are Legion for we are Many. This puts a strain on resources, there was poor planning and etc., etc.,

 

As for an answer to the OP 'poll': it's more like option C. This really doesn't have a lot to do with actual skill with programming.

[leverhelven]

But that's corporate America for you.

 

I just wanna say that I felt like standing up and appluding when I read this final sentence. Absolutely brilliant!

 

 

Answer is that neopets is dying. THey arent making money so they can't hire people. Im guessing one guy is trying to fix the problem all by himself. And he probably isn't getting well compensated. Neopets need to get revamped..

 

That sounds like such a simplified way to see things. And to think one single person is trying to fix a whole company's problem is, well, kid of naïve.

 

And I too would like to understand the horse reference.

[zhao]

I would really love how you deduced that. If it were dying, they wouldn't be having issues with how many of us are on the site. Also, there has never been just one person working on something. There's no way. And they're most certainly making enough money for companies to want to buy it, and we keep buying premium and NC. Oh and don't forget ads, for those of us who don't block them out of necessity (there are too many flashy gifs and they make my head hurt)

 

I already wrote about the various issues going on in about three different threads so I won't rehash here you'll just all have to find the posts on your own. The short answer is: we are Legion for we are Many. This puts a strain on resources, there was poor planning and etc., etc.,

 

As for an answer to the OP 'poll': it's more like option C. This really doesn't have a lot to do with actual skill with programming.

 

Not really. These days there are under 4000 people online, even on weekends. The lag may have contributed to this, but even before the lag started, I was seeing ~11000 online on average, which is less than half of back in the old days. I remember there was a time when there were consistently 25000+ users online. That's why viacom bought it for 160 million 10 years ago. Neopets currently valuation is farrrr lower than that. Jumpstart is a tiny company, while the amt sold was undisclosed, they probably paid 1/10th the amount of the original price.

 

And guys/girls, the one person statement was an exaggeration, obviously it's more than 1. I was just stressing the point that they mostly likely have a small team

 

And the economy of the site is whack now lol. I see websites selling neopets for 4$ per million. Back in the old days it was way. Even at minimum wage that's like 1.7 million neopoints per hour of work. Work 8 hours and its 14m!

[leverhelven]

 

Not really. These days there are under 4000 people online, even on weekends. The lag may have contributed to this, but even before the lag started, I was seeing ~11000 online on average, which is less than half of back in the old days. I remember there was a time when there were consistently 25000+ users online. That's why viacom bought it for 160 million 10 years ago. Neopets currently valuation is farrrr lower than that. Jumpstart is a tiny company, while the amt sold was undisclosed, they probably paid 1/10th the amount of the original price.

 

The site counter has been glitched since the transition. It always shows 3000 and something people online. Always.

[zhao]

 

The site counter has been glitched since the transition. It always shows 3000 and something people online. Always.

 

Lol really. wow i can't believe even the counter is broken........ they are completely falling apart..

[Shane for Wax]

 

Not really. These days there are under 4000 people online, even on weekends. The lag may have contributed to this, but even before the lag started, I was seeing ~11000 online on average, which is less than half of back in the old days. I remember there was a time when there were consistently 25000+ users online. That's why viacom bought it for 160 million 10 years ago. Neopets currently valuation is farrrr lower than that. Jumpstart is a tiny company, while the amt sold was undisclosed, they probably paid 1/10th the amount of the original price.

 

And guys/girls, the one person statement was an exaggeration, obviously it's more than 1. I was just stressing the point that they mostly likely have a small team

 

And the economy of the site is whack now lol. I see websites selling neopets for 4$ per million. Back in the old days it was way. Even at minimum wage that's like 1.7 million neopoints per hour of work. Work 8 hours and its 14m!

1) that counter is broken so you really shouldn't be using that for an argument. Also? It's a low priority problem. And you should never take online counters at face value anyways it's just common sense. There's often a delay in showing new people when it comes to such counters. Even if it weren't permanently at the number it is now, if it weren't there could be 2,000 more than that and it wouldn't reflect it until like five minutes later.

2) Even if it were true... If a server is only able to accommodate 2,000 people accessing it at one time, then TWICE that is actually accessing it then there will be issues. As has been mentioned in the other threads, and I assume you haven't gone and looked, the main issues here are server problems. It is almost 100% likely that Jumpstart misjudged the wear and tear we put on the servers, even if there are less of us than there were in Neopets' heyday. It was a hasty push off.

3) They've always had a relatively small team for the size of the site. It is considered better for getting good content and everything else without stretching everyone too thin.

4) I have zero idea what exactly that last bit has anything to do with anything.

 

All in all, you have a very, very dim, pessimistic view on things but I can understand where it would come from. But even with my issues with how things have been handled so far, I wouldn't say the site is in its death throes.