Welcome Back Apathy Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Is it discrimination to charge an obese traveler for two seats on an airplane? I don't know which airlines do it, but the issue has definitely been brought up. What bugs me about this issue is I usually can find some stance that I think is the best solution. This issue, I can't. I don't think it's discrimination because it's done for non-discriminatory reasons. If a passenger takes up two seats (or is big enough to be sitting on their neighbor) then yes, shouldn't they have to pay for two seats? If there is another customer sitting next to them, then it's not fair to make that person suffer; if the airline purposely keeps that seat free but doesn't charge for an extra seat, that's not fair to the airline. But at the same time, it's really not fair to someone that just because they have different genes, that they have to pay more for stuff. Interesting tidbits: *In general, when you go to a store, all sizes of the same shirt will cost the same, even though an XL uses up much more material than an XS. The labor makes up more of the cost, but an XL shirt technically costs more to make. Would it be discrimination to charge different prices for each one? Similar issue to the airplane. *Handicap law gives special rights to disabled people. (I get so sick of hearing about gay marriage being a "special right" when it's extended to everyone, but handicap parking spaces are actually technically a special right. I'm disabled, and yes, I occasionally have to take advantage of these special rights.) Suppose there is a theater that charges separate prices for orchestra, mezzanine, and balcony seats. Now suppose that theater doesn't have an elevator. They are legally required to move a handicapped person into whatever seating they have that IS handicap accessible for no extra charge. That is, a handicapped person can pay the cheapest price (balcony) but sit in better seating because they have no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarii Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Personally, I don't think paying for two seats in discrimination. If someone knows they will need two seats, then they should pay for two seats. Much like if someone knows he/she can't fit into a small shirt, he/she should buy a larger size he/she can fit into. I fit into my single seat, but I have been placed either next to an obese person, or even worse, between two obese people. That is not comfortable. There is no space for me in there, and I end up spending a good few hours twisting and turning and trying to exist in a space which doesn't exist. I think the decent thing to do would be to buy two seats, instead of making someone else's trip highly uncomfortable. For a handicapped person in the theatre scenario, if the person knows beforehand that they cannot be seated in the balcony, and willfully profits by purchasing that seat, that person has no sense of honesty. For the shirts.. While the larger shirt may cost more in material to make, the smaller shirt would use less material. This would hopefully eventually balance out for the manufacturer. I'm not sure how the shirts example applies to the airplane seats, so if you could give a little further explanation on that example so I could better understand :) Unlike the manufacturing of t-shirts, where all the material can be used to create large and small and all sizes of shirts, and hence revenue will be made on the entire lot of material, once a seat is not paid for, the airline will not make any money from that seat, and it is a loss for them. If it's suggested that if a second seat is to be given free to someone who needs it, that can give rise to many further undesirable situations. When booking a ticket, people will not say that they require two seats, and hence all the seats may be sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome Back Apathy Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 For a handicapped person in the theatre scenario, if the person knows beforehand that they cannot be seated in the balcony, and willfully profits by purchasing that seat, that person has no sense of honesty. Well, it's not willfully profiting in the least. When you're not handicapped, you have more options. A handicapped person has very, very few options. It's dishonest of the theater to charge a handicapped person more simply because the theater failed to put in an elevator, as the law requires them to. If they don't have the handicap accessibility to the top floor, but a handicapped person is perfectly willing to be on the top floor as long as they can get there, then they cannot force you to pay more. I've had it happen with my mom and me--we didn't WANT to take advantage of that, but by the time we got to the FOURTH FLOOR, we were both in so much pain that we couldn't even watch the show. Besides, it's not like they let you bring your whole party with you to the orchestra seating. My mom and I bought tickets not knowing that the theater was anti-handicap, and we wouldn't have been able to watch the show with our spouses. (My dad and my husband.) For the shirts.. While the larger shirt may cost more in material to make, the smaller shirt would use less material. This would hopefully eventually balance out for the manufacturer. I'm not sure how the shirts example applies to the airplane seats, so if you could give a little further explanation on that example so I could better understand :) Unlike the manufacturing of t-shirts, where all the material can be used to create large and small and all sizes of shirts, and hence revenue will be made on the entire lot of material, once a seat is not paid for, the airline will not make any money from that seat, and it is a loss for them. I meant it in the same way you're understanding it. I'll agree, there is some difference in that seats are pre-built, and the material is not. But I've sat next to obese people before--in coach, at that--and because I'm so tiny, I've never had a problem at all with discomfort. Should I, perhaps, get charged less for a ticket because I'm underweight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarii Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I meant it in the same way you're understanding it. I'll agree, there is some difference in that seats are pre-built, and the material is not. But I've sat next to obese people before--in coach, at that--and because I'm so tiny, I've never had a problem at all with discomfort. Should I, perhaps, get charged less for a ticket because I'm underweight? The thing with the underweight case is that even though you're not big enough to fill the entire seat completely, you need to pay for the space. They can't sell the remaining amount of space that you're not using to another passenger. Luckily for you, you get to move around in your space and get as comfortable as you like. For the others, they are using up their space, and taking up more space that will otherwise go unpaid for. The seats used to be a one size fits all. If you fit in it, great, but if you can't, then get another seat, and you won't have your body pressing into another passenger. I know many obese passengers say that having to buy two seats is embarrassing, but I would say knowing you're overflowing out of your seat and pressing into someone else is much, much worse. Well, it's not willfully profiting in the least. When you're not handicapped, you have more options. A handicapped person has very, very few options. It's dishonest of the theater to charge a handicapped person more simply because the theater failed to put in an elevator, as the law requires them to. If they don't have the handicap accessibility to the top floor, but a handicapped person is perfectly willing to be on the top floor as long as they can get there, then they cannot force you to pay more. I've had it happen with my mom and me--we didn't WANT to take advantage of that, but by the time we got to the FOURTH FLOOR, we were both in so much pain that we couldn't even watch the show. Besides, it's not like they let you bring your whole party with you to the orchestra seating. My mom and I bought tickets not knowing that the theater was anti-handicap, and we wouldn't have been able to watch the show with our spouses. (My dad and my husband.) That's completely different if the theatre is going against the law by not providing the necessary support for handicapped people. I'm sorry you and your mom had to go through that! That's a horrible way to have spent what should have been a wonderful evening. As well, I'm really shocked that a place with at least four floors does not have an elevator :| Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chibi_chibi_tsukino Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 On an airplane spaceis scarce. Therefore it makes sense that extremely overweight people should pay more if they need two seats. Maybe not twice as much, but times and a half seems appropriate. *In general, when you go to a store, all sizes of the same shirt will cost the same, even though an XL uses up much more material than an XS. Not everywhere. Very popular German online shops (like OTTO) charge significantly more for larger sizes. To give you an example in US sizes: size 0 and 2 might cost 18$, size 4 and 6 cost $23, size 8 and 10 cost $28 and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emily Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Here's something else to ponder. Have you ever been stuck behind a person who insists on reclining their seat? Airplane, bus, train... The seats are so close together, they're practically in your lap? To me, This is almost worse than being squished sideways. Though, the seat reclining thing is a matter of choice. The obese thing... Well, can't exactly be remedied while on an airplane. But in the end, even asking people to not recline their seat doesn't always fix the problem. So should they have to pay for 2 seats as well? The seat they use and the seat behind? I kind of think if you make obese people pay for 2 seats, then chair recliners should have to pay for two seats. What about loud crying children that all the other passengers are forced to put up with in a confined space? Should parents with babies have to pay more? My point here is that during every flight, it's hard to make sure every passenger is completely comfortable. Making certain customers pay more is not right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeldafable_rebel Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Here's something else to ponder. Have you ever been stuck behind a person who insists on reclining their seat? Airplane, bus, train... The seats are so close together, they're practically in your lap? To me, This is almost worse than being squished sideways. Though, the seat reclining thing is a matter of choice. The obese thing... Well, can't exactly be remedied while on an airplane. But in the end, even asking people to not recline their seat doesn't always fix the problem. So should they have to pay for 2 seats as well? The seat they use and the seat behind? I kind of think if you make obese people pay for 2 seats, then chair recliners should have to pay for two seats. What about loud crying children that all the other passengers are forced to put up with in a confined space? Should parents with babies have to pay more? My point here is that during every flight, it's hard to make sure every passenger is completely comfortable. Making certain customers pay more is not right. I don't think the airlines really want everyone to be comfortable - they want the money that an empty seat (or half an empty seat) is losing them. So, a crying baby will not take up anymore spaces than was already paid for, and, unfortunately, a person reclining doesn't make the seat behind it unavailable. Then again, if the obese person isn't taking up more than half a chair, technically someone should be able to fit there, too. I don't really have an opinion for or against it, but I think the airlines are out to make the most money possible, and people taking up extra seats is a cheap way to make more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarii Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I don't know about airlines trying to make the most money possible, but they are trying to make enough money to cover their expenses and stay in business. Fliers want cheaper and cheaper flights, even though airlines simply cannot afford such low pricing. Case in point is Air Australia, which went bankrupt a few days ago, stranding thousands of passengers. The news article I read on CNN, and another state that the airline ran out of money. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/17/air-australia-bankrupt-strands-passengers_n_1284112.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nataluna Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 those passengers are sleeping in the airport until they can get flights, there is no accomodation left.. also Qantas had an 83% loss of profit last year (probaby because of strikes, but thats.. alot of money) it was recently proposed in response to the fuel shortages (airplanes are not carrying sufficient feul for flights, a recent bad storm had a virgin plane circling Perth (Australia) and the pilot made several approaches, if he missed the last one he would not have had fuel for another pass and would have had to emergency crash in the river.) that a weight take be applied, as heavier passengers require more fuel to take off. as practical as it may be obviously its very unpopular. if you bought a cello on board you would be required to pay for an extra seat. Air Asia offers XL seats at a premium cost (they don't do a first class/business class option). if you paid for a ticket and was supremely inconvenienced by your fellow passenger, would you get a reduced ticket price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angeló Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Sometimes , when I'm on a long bus or train ride ... I buy the seat next to me too ... just so I can sit comfortably , spread my legs , or sleep ... because I don't like sitting next to strangers ... I'm not obese , and I do it voluntarily .. I'm pretty sure the Airlines would still seat someone next to an obese person if they could ... but they're not allowed to because they would be sued by those people who got the worst end of the deal (getting squashed is not amusing) ... so they make the obese person pay for two ... it's hardly fair for anyone ... but it's the only way ... a little side note .. I just read the article Zarii posted and couldn't but laugh at this part Stranded in Honolulu, Priya Sinh was forced to postpone her 18th birthday party on Saturday at her home on Australia's Gold Coast. She used her iPad to log onto Facebook to tell her 70 guests not to come because she wouldn't be back in time. First world problems .. HA!!! but I guess , when you're 18 , your birthday is a big deal ... :) it sure wasn't for me ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blabberfingers Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Maybe the descrimination lies in the assumption that all people will fit into those darn seats. Perhaps when designing planes, comfort should be somewhat of a consideration instead of jamming as many tiny seats in as possible to make money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarii Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Maybe the descrimination lies in the assumption that all people will fit into those darn seats. Perhaps when designing planes, comfort should be somewhat of a consideration instead of jamming as many tiny seats in as possible to make money. I'm prettyyyyyyyyyyy sure if they design planes with bigger (and thus fewer) seats, the prices for those seats would be pretty much the equivalent of paying for two. That will not make people happy. Larger seats + same or reduced airfare will drive the industry into the ground. It's just not feasible. I'm also guessing that making the airplanes bigger isn't an option, they probably don't have the know-how to design large planes that will actually take off, and not crash and burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emily Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I don't think it would drive the industry into the ground, profits just wouldn't be as high. Heaven forbid big business makes a $24 million profit instead of $25 million. And yes, I know I'm exaggerating but the point gets across. Many times when businesses say they're "losing money" it means their profits aren't as high as they usually are/ where they were expected to be, not that they're actually operating under cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarii Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I can't agree. In the last few months, at least three carriers have filed for banruptcy, or are actually bankrupt. One being India's Kingfisher, another being American Airlines. While American seems to have been strategic according to one article, Kingfisher is well and truly under. But his airline - named after his famous brand of Indian beer - has become one of the main casualties of high fuel costs and a fierce price war between a handful of budget carriers which, between them, ordered hundreds of aircraft for delivery over the next decade in an ambitious bet on the future. I don't know how the low budget carriers are doing, but apparently the legacy carriers are taking a beating. A beating that leads to bankruptcy. Kingfisher hasn't even been able to pay its employees :/ What a horrendous situation to be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristinaapril Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I don't believe it's discrimination. I'm a frequent flier (my best friend lives in Arizona while I reside in Pennsylvania). Many times on a plane they call out that they are checking bags due to weight constraints. About twenty-five percent of Americans are obese. Imagine how this large minority could easily be the reason for my personal items not allowed on the plane, or better yet having to wait for the next plane! Also as Zarii mentioned, it is uncomfortable to have someones leg on top of your thighs! Now, I'm definitely not Ms Thin (5'2 130lbs) but I am able to sit in my chair without being in someone elses space, why can't they do the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naamah D. Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I'm a lovely and large lady, and if somebody said "You need to pay for two seats" out loud it was cause me public humilation! So no, if you do take of two seats(I don't know if I would or not, I weigh somewhere around 210lbs) you should not have to pay. I'm very proud to be plus size, and I'd be very much embarassed. EDIT: and while we're on the clothing piece, they make clothing for us BBWs(Big Beautiful Women)at good prices as well. ANOTHER EDIT: I am not obese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trig Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Here's the thing- I think if you take up two seats- you should at least have to pay a premium. I understand that because of genetics and such some people are naturally bigger than others- I have nothing against larger people. However I do think, as others have mentioned, that airplane companies are just out to get your money. I understand that you shouldn't have to pay for two seats, that is ridiculous but I think that if you take up two seats, you should at least have to pay like 1.5 what you make. If I was larger I would probably be significantly offended by this- but to be honest I think it's the most fair all around? People will not be sitting next to you and have you practically on top of them, you as the larger person would be MORE COMFORTABLE and the airline would not lose a significant amount of money. Another option would be recommending 1st class seating to larger people- usually the seats are much farther apart and you have more room- therefore the person would be more comfortable? Also- someone was mentioning crying children. People still have to pay to take their children on an airplane and we are dealing with the issue of cost I believe- not the issue of 'it's a part of life'. I don't know...I hope this didn't sound too offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blabberfingers Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Me again. I've got a solution! Anyone is welcome to sit on my lap. Not sure how large I can accommodate but I'll give it a shot. I'll need to be paid for the squish factor though. Hey, maybe I do understand the airlines after all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccer_lover_ Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 i think that the real issue here is airline companies making the seats ridiculous so that even "skinny" people are practically sitting on each other; i say deal with the real issue and make airplanes more comfortable and then when the seats are normal size and someone needs 2 then pay for 2 but these companies are trying to make more money by making the seats ridiculously small and thats there fault; when someones a size 12 which is the average size and are uncomfortable then its not about obesity its about economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaana Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I'm a lovely and large lady, and if somebody said "You need to pay for two seats" out loud it was cause me public humilation! So no, if you do take of two seats(I don't know if I would or not, I weigh somewhere around 210lbs) you should not have to pay. I'm very proud to be plus size, and I'd be very much embarassed. ... ANOTHER EDIT: I am not obese. You're not obese. Do you, when sitting on a plane, have any part of your body on the person's chair next to you? No, then it's not a problem. Yes, and aeroplane companies should consider changing their seats slightly. I think the issue is not people who are slightly overweight or on the bigger side of normal, or even those with "bad genes" (never met a moderately healthy person with genes like those that couldn't fit in an aeroplane seat); the issue is morbidly obese people who are invading your space - being in an area you have paid for the right to have to yourself for the duration of the flight. Compare it to leasing a block of land, and your neighbour - also leasing their land from the same person - comes and dumps their junk on your land until the lease is up. Wouldn't you be annoyed? If you really needed that space, wouldn't you complain? i think that the real issue here is airline companies making the seats ridiculous so that even "skinny" people are practically sitting on each other; i say deal with the real issue and make airplanes more comfortable and then when the seats are normal size and someone needs 2 then pay for 2 but these companies are trying to make more money by making the seats ridiculously small and thats there fault; when someones a size 12 which is the average size and are uncomfortable then its not about obesity its about economy. Ma'am, it's a business. I know this contradicts what I said earlier, but aeroplane companies are going to try to maximise profits - cause that's what they do. Obesity is something that may not have been such a problem when the planes were commissioned, why throw away perfectly good planes? If you're that uncomfortable, pay for business or first class. Also, as a "skinny person", last time I went on a plane, if you sit on the chair as a normal chair (no feet up, etc) I fit fine. So did the majority of people on the plane that I passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trig Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I agree airplanes are uncomfortable- but so are most things when you're sitting in them for an extended period of time. Sure they could make the seats more comfortable but that just doesn't seem very airplane company like- if you want that you're going to have to pay for 1st class. And people are right, the issue here is morbidly obese people who are uncomfortably invading your space on the plane. It might sound harsh but there are also weight requirements for planes, otherwise they won't fly right and that needs to be taken into consideration when doing bookings as well. Plus, if I was extremely obese I would probably prefer the comfort of having two seats then always feeling bad because I'm practically on top of my neighbour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilshadowdweller Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Having just used a plane, I can vouch that the seats on my particular plane were very narrow - but the space between the people in front of us and us was fine. My plane (WestJet) is known to charge for two seats. However, even with the seat being somewhat small, the guy beside us, my boyfriend, and myself were all able to sit comfortably. I think that if all Planes were made like WestJet's, than yes, alterations maybe needed, but not too much. I understand that some people (and this isn't the majority) can't help their own weight, but the bottom line is: if you take up two seats, you're preventing potential other customers from sitting in that spot, thus, you lose them money. Whether or not the companies purposely make their seats a bit small just to charge extra would be beyond me. Keep in mind: it's not an illusion that America has gotten bigger, they simply have. If the Planes are old, why should they have to update them? Recently, Disneyland had to alter one of their rides (the small world one) to accomondate the real fact that a lot of people are now bigger than they once were. Anyway, I think having this extra charge sort of encourages people to lose weight. Don't forget, it's not just Airplanes. My ex boyfriend actually wasn't permitted to ride on a Canada's Wonderland Ride because his large weight caused an imbalance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome Back Apathy Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 All right, now that we've exhausted that topic...a few other airplane-related subjects. They are different of course, but your views might be similar, so hey, let's bring them in. Toddler Tantrum Gets Family Booted from JetBlue Flight Summary: The plane kicked a family of four off the flight because they needed everyone seated, and the two-year-old was refusing to stay in her seat and threw a tantrum. Family Claims They Were Kicked Off Plane For Having Too Many Kids Summary: Mother, father, three-year-old, and three infants all walk onto a plane. Sounds like the intro of a joke. Anyway, they only had three tickets among them, and the policy is that infants can travel free if accompanied by an adult who will hold them in their lap--one infant per adult. They thought they could get away with having one infant on the three-year-old's lap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiwo Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I don't think it's discriminatory, but people are so ridiculous PC and oversensitive these days that there is a bound to be a fuss about anything that even hints at singling out any one group of people. It should not be based on weight, as a lot of people have weight evenly distributed throughout their body, and therefore fit quite comfortably into one seat - but if you do take up more than one seat, you pay for another. It's that simple. It's not fair on other passengers or the airline if overweight passengers only pay for one seat and yet make use of two. I'll read the articles posted and edit my post re: the toddler & children stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tytio Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I think they should charge double, it is fair. 98% of the time, when people are that fat, it is due to personal choices. I dont see how people think this is discrimination, political corectness is just going overboard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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