Apparently I was scamming?

[Lorelei]

Okay, so I got frozen today for (admittedly) being a jerk on the trading post.

 

Like, if someone asked for 250k, I'd offer 250 neopoints.

 

Now, I see how that is shady but I DON'T see how that is scamming.

 

For starters, I couldn't find an editorial about it. Nor could I find anything in the rules that says that I can be frozen for making offers on the trading post. I actually can't find a "Rules" section on the website anywhere. I never made promises, asked for passwords, or anything to the other user. I simply made trading post offers.

 

So can they really hold us to rules they do not announce?

[April]

Normally, this is considered scamming because if someone wants 600k for a baby paitnbrush and someone offers 60,000 the person may accidentally accept thinking it is what they asked.

 

However, I don't see how 250 can be mixed up with 250,000.

 

And yes they should announce this on the rules.

[xSummer]

Well it is also shady for a person to be offering 250 on something that is worth a lot more. They could have seen it as you might of bought the item offsite and got it that way.

[fish_mummy]

Moral of the story: Don't knowingly offer one thousand times less than you know an item is worth...:/ <_<

 

(Can you honestly say that you were doing it for any reason but in hopes of fooling someone...? Even if it SEEMS obvious, it is still scamming...)

 

 

Edit: And I am certain that I have seen some such in the editorial...

 

 

this is at least one example:

 

"Hi, TNT! So, say that you develop a certain method for getting all those half asleep users' paint brushes (like, offering them 750 Neopoints when they want 750k but, due to them being half asleep, they give it to you) and make a lot of Neopoints from this method by selling the paint brushes off at a great profit: is this against the rules, or is it just sniping? Thanks! ~iced_angel_loves_you

By doing this, you would be attempting to trick someone for your own gain at their expense. Preying on other players like this is called scamming, not sniping. Sniping is finding a good deal that allows you to make a profit, or making a low offer to someone who clearly understands what they are being offered and accepts the offer because they want to get rid of the item, etc.

 

This is question 6401, archived from Editorial Issue 420."

[Lorelei]

Normally, this is considered scamming because if someone wants 600k for a baby paitnbrush and someone offers 60,000 the person may accidentally accept thinking it is what they asked.

 

However, I don't see how 250 can be mixed up with 250,000.

 

And yes they should announce this on the rules.

 

April, I still don't even see how offering 60,000 on a baby paint brush is scamming

1) It could easily be a typo

2) No one is making the person on the other end accept. Now, if if someone had a baby pb on the trading post and someone offered 600 and neomailed the user saying that they found a glitch and if you accept an offer that is 1000x less than it should be you actually end up with three baby pb....that is a scam. In my case, the only thing I was guilty of is lousy offering.

[Wembly]

April, I still don't even see how offering 60,000 on a baby paint brush is scamming

1) It could easily be a typo

2) No one is making the person on the other end accept. Now, if if someone had a baby pb on the trading post and someone offered 600 and neomailed the user saying that they found a glitch and if you accept an offer that is 1000x less than it should be you actually end up with three baby pb....that is a scam. In my case, the only thing I was guilty of is lousy offering.

I'm guessing you did it repeatedly? Which would be why you were frozen. Yes, that is considered scamming. Neopets defines scamming as any person knowing trying to mislead another player. So you were offering less in hopes that the other player would not being paying attention. It is actually written out in messages from TNT somewhere but off the top of my head I don't know where. I will look for it for you, but yes, what you did is scamming just as it would be to offer a paintbrush plushie instead of a paintbrush if that was what they were asking for.

[Lorelei]

Moral of the story: Don't knowingly offer one thousand times less than you know an item is worth...:/ <_<

 

(Can you honestly say that you were doing it for any reason but in hopes of fooling someone...? Even if it SEEMS obvious, it is still scamming...)

 

 

Oh no, I was totally hoping the person on the other end would be careless. I fully admit to shady and mean behavior. And yes, I did it repeatedly, though not to the same players. However, I don't think it is scamming.

 

INHO

Putting a paint brush plushie on the trading post, and then putting the value of the actual paint brush in the wishlist: Not scamming

Putting a paint brush plushie on the trading post, and then putting "paints your pets desert!" in the wishlist: Scamming

 

The first one is just an absurd request. The second one is a lie.

 

I'm just saying that if you can be frozen for underoffering, then there should be an editorial or something about it. I don't believe there is, unless someone can educate me.

[April]

I'm guessing you did it repeatedly? Which would be why you were frozen. Yes, that is considered scamming. Neopets defines scamming as any person knowing trying to mislead another player. So you were offering less in hopes that the other player would not being paying attention. It is actually written out in messages from TNT somewhere but off the top of my head I don't know where. I will look for it for you, but yes, what you did is scamming just as it would be to offer a paintbrush plushie instead of a paintbrush if that was what they were asking for.

 

This is what I was trying to say.

 

It is misleading and many times has happened where the user accepts the offer and then realized it was mislead.

 

If it was a typo then I would hope the person would offer the remaining amount of points.

 

Keep in mind. There are a lot of young users on this site who could very easily miss a zero or two. I'm not saying older users don't. But I know if I was 12 and someone offered what I thought was what I wanted, I would accept no problem and be thrilled.

[Wembly]

Okay, here's instance one from the editorials stating what you did was scamming, and there are more if you want me find them too

 

You have stated previously that intentionally cheating someone on the Trading Post (for example, they ask for 100,000 NP and you offer 10,000 NP) isn't allowed, but I was wondering if you could get in trouble for offering less than the Trading Post price for an item on a trade and that offer being accepted? Also, if you can, please explain what the difference is between that and Auction / Shop Wiz sniping? Please remove my username. ;D ~username removed

 

There's no problem at all with making an offer of whatever you like for a lot on the Trading Post, as long as you are not maliciously trying to trick or spam someone. In the case of your example, or the instance of offering a plushie version of something on their wishlist with the hope that they'll fall for it, that is what crosses the line into scamming, not making a lower offer in the hopes they will accept your bid on their lot. This, Auction, and Shop Wiz sniping are all fine as long as everything is on the up and up.

This is question 6395, archived from Editorial Issue 419.

 

And here's the another one clearly stating what you did was scamming

So I was on the boards yesterday and I saw someone who had just lost 285,000 Neopoints. The trader had a Snowbunny in their trades and their wishlist was 285k. They said someone bid 285 NP and she accepted without thinking, but then later realized what happened. The person said it was her (the trader's) own personal fault, but other people said that the trader was scammed because the buyer made it look like it was 285k; therefore, the trader should report the scammer. So, did she get scammed? ~kopakasheild5

 

Yes, she was scammed. Maliciously trying to trick people like that is scamming. Please remember to take your time when making transactions. Being aware is the first step in avoiding scams.

This is question 6083, archived from Editorial Issue 398.

 

And there are probably more, so case and point, it has been stated multiple times.

[Lorelei]

Okay, here's instance one from the editorials stating what you did was scamming, and there are more if you want me find them too

 

 

This is question 6395, archived from Editorial Issue 419.

 

And here's the another one clearly stating what you did was scamming

 

This is question 6083, archived from Editorial Issue 398.

 

And there are probably more, so case and point, it has been stated multiple times.

 

 

Wait wait, how did you find that? I tried to search it before I did it and I couldn't find anything. I clicked on the search bar on the side and I only got articles/guides to the trading post. Is there a different way to search editorials?

[fish_mummy]

 

This is question 6083, archived from Editorial Issue 398.

 

And there are probably more, so case and point, it has been stated multiple times.

yes...like the one I posted above...:/

 

 

"Oh no, I was totally hoping the person on the other end would be careless. I fully admit to shady and mean behavior. And yes, I did it repeatedly, though not to the same players. However, I don't think it is scamming."

----------------

And you wonder why you would be frozen for this...? <_< :eh:

[Lorelei]

yes...like the one I posted above...:/

 

 

How do you search the editorials? Bah, that could have save me a lot of time. I thought I had searched to see if TNT had talked about this before I actually did it.

[Wembly]

Honestly, I used another site to search through the editorials because it's faster.

[fish_mummy]

I search on sunny neo here:

 

http://www.sunnyneo.com/NTeditorial.php

 

 

Edit: Huh? this is the account on here I had thought I had lost...(forgotten password + defunct email?)

 

Some how I entered the nmae and password instead of the new one this afternoon...

 

I borrowed a pea chia with the new account...and I think only one is allowed...so I will need to find out somehow what I need to do with this one...

[Lorelei]

Wow. Wish I'd know about that.

 

I still don't think that we should be held responsible for rules that we have no way to know if they are in existence. Editorials should be searchable through the neopets website. I even looked around for a "Rules" page.

 

While what I was doing is shady, it is definitely a grey area because i was using their own system to be misleading. I didn't do anything else (neomail, make promises, etc) to further try to convince people.

[Wembly]

While I do agree that it's annoying that their editorial search does not work very well, if you really want to take it all the way back to the terms and conditions that you clicked 'I agree' to in order to have an account on the site, you agreed that you would follow all rules no matter where there were documented and that you agreed that nick can delete you account whenever they see fit

 

The privileges granted to you under this Agreement will terminate immediately and automatically without notice from us, if, in our sole discretion, you fail to comply with this Agreement or the applicable game rules posted on the individual Nickelodeon Virtual Worlds. We also reserve the right to terminate your access to any of the Nickelodeon Virtual Worlds at any time. Finally, we reserve the right to change, modify, delete any of the Nickelodeon Virtual Worlds or any of their respective content or features at our sole discretion.

[Lorelei]

While I do agree that it's annoying that their editorial search does not work very well, if you really want to take it all the way back to the terms and conditions that you clicked 'I agree' to in order to have an account on the site, you agreed that you would follow all rules no matter where there were documented and that you agreed that nick can delete you account whenever they see fit

 

 

Aside from when I made the account, how can I access the terms of agreement on their webpage? I looked for that also, but I couldn't find it.

[hrtbrk]

I think it's mostly common sense to not take advantage of others, or try to rip them off for your own benefit, on most websites on the internet.

 

Their decision isn't really all that shocking.

 

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

[fish_mummy]

Um...I fail to see why you think that trying to rip someone off is not scamming...and TNT clearly states in the Rules that scamming is not allowed

 

"Neo Rules

 

To keep Neopets a clean place to be the following things are NOT permitted. Any offending accounts will have their messages removed and their accounts permanently deleted.

...

9. There are no quick and easy ways to get rich in Neopets. You may not cheat or scam in any way. "

[Noog]

Wow. Wish I'd know about that.

 

I still don't think that we should be held responsible for rules that we have no way to know if they are in existence. Editorials should be searchable through the neopets website. I even looked around for a "Rules" page.

 

While what I was doing is shady, it is definitely a grey area because i was using their own system to be misleading. I didn't do anything else (neomail, make promises, etc) to further try to convince people.

 

You should probably read the Terms and Conditions before you check that you agree to them. By checking off the box when you made your account, you agreed that you must "respect the community". You also agreed that Neopets had the right to terminate your account, so doing anything close to disrespect would be a bad idea.

 

EDIT: It seems others have made this point since I started typing. xD I should've read the T&C faster.

[Lorelei]

You should probably read the Terms and Conditions before you check that you agree to them. By checking off the box when you made your account, you agreed that you must "respect the community". You also agreed that Neopets had the right to terminate your account, so doing anything close to disrespect would be a bad idea.

 

EDIT: It seems others have made this point since I started typing. xD I should've read the T&C faster.

 

 

Am I supposed to have the terms and conditions memorized from when I made the account or is it actually posted on the website somewhere?

[fish_mummy]

Aside from when I made the account, how can I access the terms of agreement on their webpage? I looked for that also, but I couldn't find it.

 

go here, I think

http://www.neopets.com/terms.phtml

 

This post has been edited by a member of staff (Spritzie) because of a violation of the forum rules.

Please keep your posts at 7 words or above. Links do not contribute to the post count.

Please check your user inbox to see if you have been contacted regarding this incident, then review our rules.

 

 

um...how is adding the link that they are looking for not adding to the conversation?

 

and It looks like seven words me... 1. go 2. here 3. I 4. think 5. neopets 6. com 7. terms

 

whatever works though.:/

 

I will try hardrer in the future to not under type my message...:/

 

This account should be abandoned anyway...it is an old one that i had lost password and email account for...

 

I accidentally typed the old one which I HAD forgotten...*poofs off of this account*

I shall log into the fish_mummy account now.:( (I will try to not enter this one...but I can not promise that I will be able to avoid accidentally entering this one in the future if it is allowed to exist.:( (since I somehow just did this afternoon...)

[Noog]

Am I supposed to have the terms and conditions memorized from when I made the account or is it actually posted on the website somewhere?

 

You're supposed to know them, but you can read them here.

 

Also, to settle the "scamming" argument, here's a definition of scamming: "Victimize: deprive of by deceit". Therefore, when you tried to give someone a bad deal by deceiving them, you were scamming.

[Angeló]

you were frozen because you weren't playing fair .. simple as that

 

however i hope you learn from your mistake and not repeat it

 

i once fell for a scam on the TP - the guy was selling 10 baby paint brush PLUSHIES for 100k each , claiming they're Baby PB's (hurry up , get it before it's gone - type of trade) .. i didn't pay attention and offered ... the Plushie was worth 60k at that time so I ended up losing only 40k ... but that left a horrible and bitter taste in my mouth ... I don't know if that guy got frozen or not ... but what you did was almost the same ...

[Lorelei]

you were frozen because you weren't playing fair .. simple as that

 

however i hope you learn from your mistake and not repeat it

 

i once fell for a scam on the TP - the guy was selling 10 baby paint brush PLUSHIES for 100k each , claiming they're Baby PB's (hurry up , get it before it's gone - type of trade) .. i didn't pay attention and offered ... the Plushie was worth 60k at that time so I ended up losing only 40k ... but that left a horrible and bitter taste in my mouth ... I don't know if that guy got frozen or not ... but what you did was almost the same ...

 

 

Oh, I am totally guilty of being a jerk. The first time I got away with it, the person neomailed me and I gave the item back. The second time, I didn't get a neomail and I kept the item. (Yes, I realize under 13s can't neomail. I am not trying to make a case for my morality here).

 

I also happen to study a lot of legal theory, and the neopets rules in this case are completely convoluted. If it weren't for the clause that they can close any account for no reason (similar to private property rights), then there would be no way for them to hold me accountable if this were a real case. If you applied a case like this to a real courtroom a lawyer would be able to get the charges dropped in a second because of their lack of consistency, the fact that there is no way to find out about the rules on the website ("being a good community member" is defined as not swearing), and insufficient evidence of intent.

 

WAS I trying to rip someone off? Absolutely. But the only thing that they could concretely accuse me of is being cheap.

 

That's if one tries to apply legal theory to the neopets world, which doesn't work, obviously.

 

 

But I digress.

 

I did all of this on a side account to be cautious. I did, however, sell my friend an item I got by doing this cheaply. Since I transferred "stolen goods" essentially, is her account in danger? Is she allowed to keep the item since she bought it from me on the trading post cheaply but fairly?