Neopets Games : A Hypothetical Debate

[Angeló]

Dear TDN friends/members.

 

My sole purpose in this topic is to start a healthy, hypothetical debate over an issue that has worried me in the past, and continues to do so.

 

Yesterday, someone on the Avatar chat neboard (AC in short) was trying to get lent the MSSP TCG (like hundreds of players do everyday), and he mentioned he's an honest player who worked hard for all his game avatars, instead of "paying some neighborhood wizkid $20 to play games for me"

 

This reminded me of an incident a few years back on Neo, when several of the most famous and successful players on Neopets were all frozen for "cheating." These guys were all real-life friends, and a couple of them were my neofriends (before 2006 I was an achieved player myself lol, or so I thought.) This was made a very ugly public affair on the Neoboards, and TNT were hugely involved in it (replying to topics, etc)

 

According to TNT, every time a new game avatar was released, these guys all earned the avatar in a very suspicious manner and within several minutes of each other, raising the question about if they were all sitting in one room while one guy (the best gamer) played the game on all accounts, earning the avatars for his friends. Same goes for new game trophies or trophies earned at the beginning of each month. These guys apparently got too cocky/arrogant and thought they're above the Neopets Chia Police Law so they got careless. After they got frozen, they all quit Neo and I haven't heard from or about them ever since.

 

Now, this is not to discuss whether TNT were right or wrong, or if these guys really did cheat or not (maybe they were all good players.)

 

My question is, and I repeat, this is HYPOTHETICAL, using myself as an example since I live alone and I don't know any people in real life (lol j/k - I actually don't know anyone in real life who plays Neopets :P) ... My question is :

 

Where do you think the line should be drawn? Suppose I'm good at a certain game, and I have a little brother or sister who are not. Am I not allowed to play a game for them? or maybe even a little cousin who lives next door and invites me over for lunch and a quick avatar?

 

I mean, sure paying someone to play a game for you is way beyond logic (why waste real money on pixels) but I know some people are just crazy and obsessed enough to do that and more (otherwise we wouldn't have neo-hackers, CG'ers and cheaters wreacking havoc on the site.)

 

Either way, how would YOU judge this behavior if you were TNT and how do you differentiate if an account with 100 trophies/300 avatars is legit or not? I mean, obviously if someone is a really good gamer, all game avatars/trophies are humanly possible. Not easy .. but possible ... ask me, I earned Feed Florg avatar after 3-4 months of playing daily lol.

 

(sorry about the long topic, I tend to get carried away lol)

[Spritzie]

I don't know what ways, or guidelines TNT has for judging if someone is, or could be, cheating or not. It seems they've been wrong before.

 

But as for your question of being allowed to play games for others: It is against the rules. And the circumstances you listed, like a younger sibling, might make it tempting, but in my opinion, a rule is a rule. If exceptions were to be made, then even more issues would arise. (Kind of like, if they can do it, why can't I?) In that situation, I'd help the person with tips. Explain how I play, what helps me get more points.

[Cornflakes]

Okay, my husband is WAY better at Typing Terror than I am, and I think that if I want to let him into my account to win the av for me, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not like there's any money exchanging hands anywhere.

 

But when you have one guy playing games for a bunch of his friends, it crosses the line. So I guess for me, how much you abuse the system makes all the difference. A husband playing for his wife (or brother playing for sister or whatever) every now and then shouldn't be that big of a deal. But organized, systematic cheating should be a freezable offense.

 

Since it's difficult and endlessly time-consuming to make such distinctions in each and every case, I suppose TnT just froze people across the board, regardless of the actual level of infraction. If I were TnT I would have probably done the same thing.

[Octopus]

If it's within the family, it's a matter of personal choice. Would you feel good having your sister/brother do it for you, would you rather let them learn how to do it themselves and just give them tips, etc. Personally I wouldn't want someone else to do it for me. As for TNT's judgement, it's anyone's guess how they do it.

[Yozora]

I believe that as long as they are separate IPs accessing the accounts when winning those avatars, they are fine. Don't care if it is someone accessing another's account as long as the IP originally accessing it stayed the same.

 

So if I went over my cousin's house and she was having a hard time getting an avatar for a game, I would do it for her. (She doesn't care about avatars though, haha) I see nothing wrong with getting help as long as it isn't obvious people are doing this. Because how is TnT going to know for sure? Unless the people are bragging about it, same IPs accessing various main accounts, or they actually know the people and witnessed them doing it, TnT shouldn't use theory to freezing. They could be wrong after all!

 

So yes, I believe one should be allowed to play for another as long as they don't break existing rules of having more than one main account per IP address. The game is still being played in a legit way, it's just another person doing the work. They aren't using programs to do the game, or otherwise forcing a score.

[Spritzie]

So if I went over my cousin's house and she was having a hard time getting an avatar for a game, I would do it for her. (She doesn't care about avatars though, haha) I see nothing wrong with getting help as long as it isn't obvious people are doing this. Because how is TnT going to know for sure? Unless the people are bragging about it, same IPs accessing various main accounts, or they actually know the people and witnessed them doing it, TnT shouldn't use theory to freezing. They could be wrong after all!

 

So yes, I believe one should be allowed to play for another as long as they don't break existing rules of having more than one main account per IP address. The game is still being played in a legit way, it's just another person doing the work. They aren't using programs to do the game, or otherwise forcing a score.

 

This makes it sounds like it's okay to break the rules, as long as you aren't caught, or it can't be proven.

 

And I'm not sure there's a rule about more than one main per IP address. There's probably families out there that don't own more than one computer. My dad has worked in the computer industry for 30+ years, and for years, we only had a single family computer that everyone used.

[Bloods_Mistress]

yeah! totally about the same ip thing. I have my own computer now but i didnt used to. Also? if I dont have my computer with me but i need to do something on neopets? I access it on many different computers. so like, thats kinda a bad way to judge

[selusa]

Interesting question. Neo's rules definitely state that it's not allowed to make money off of their site, either by selling virtual items or by selling the time it takes you to achieve these items. It also says that you and you alone are allowed on your account, and letting anyone else use your account isn't allowed. However, I see a loophole that might allow other people to play your account and earn stuff legally. From Neopet's Terms and Conditions:

 

You shall not share your account with anyone or allow anyone else other than you personally to access or use your account, other than your parent(s) or guardian(s) who have rights to access and manage your account if you are a minor. You will be held responsible for any activity that occurs on an account registered to you.

 

So, if you're a kid and your dad is an ace gamer and you ask him very nicely to get a high score or game avatar for you, that would be totally legit, right? Since he has the right to manage your account and all, would TNT be in the right to freeze a person doing this if they happened to get caught?

[Spritzie]

So, if you're a kid and your dad is an ace gamer and you ask him very nicely to get a high score or game avatar for you, that would be totally legit, right? Since he has the right to manage your account and all, would TNT be in the right to freeze a person doing this if they happened to get caught?

 

I thought about that when I read that rule, but then you get into specific areas where it gets harder. Is playing a game, really considered part of "managing" an account? I think of managing as watching the over-all usage, managing the email, friends, etc. It'd be up to the kid to do things on the site, under the parent's supervision, as opposed to the parent doing it for them, because they're "managing."

[keithp]

Most of the good NP games always have a "catch" involved. That pinball game, 3 out of 4 levels are very easy, but the 4th is nearly impossible. You dont even come close to a high score unless you finish all 4 levels. I am great at pinball, and that game has me beaten. Maths Nightmare is math, but on top of that you have to click each cloud while your calculating the answer in your head. Sometimes you are so involved thinking of the answer, you click the wrong cloud. Meerca chase, similar to snake. In snake, you just have to avoid the wall and yourself, but in here, you have random neggs in the middle too! After about 5 neggs, they always seem to group close together to make it harder and unless you play hard you wont get many NP's from it.

 

I just dont think of Neopets games as "straightforward" games. There is always some catch or twist to them or tactics to make you get as little NP's as possible.

 

I dont know many kid players who get a lot of game trophies, most of them are adults or late teens who have experience in video games and great dexterity. I made posts on this for a few years and most of the people admit to cheating, or having their older brother or parent do the games for them. Have you seen all those cheat code sites for Neopets, there are hundreds!

 

Some hard games are fun for a challenge, but the easy games are usually quiz games or free spin games or games that have like 10-20 levels!, boring.

[Alice ☮]

In my opinion, it's equally wrong to help out a sibling/friend/spouse as it is to have a bunch of gamers logging onto each other's accounts to get each other avatars/trophies. It's not fair to those who don't have ace-gamer parents/siblings/friends. And the gaming avatars/trophies ARE possible, it just takes time and practice. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but I think that the rule is there for a reason: fairness.

[Yozora]

This makes it sounds like it's okay to break the rules, as long as you aren't caught, or it can't be proven.

 

And I'm not sure there's a rule about more than one main per IP address. There's probably families out there that don't own more than one computer. My dad has worked in the computer industry for 30+ years, and for years, we only had a single family computer that everyone used.

 

The rule of IP Address I used a bit narrowly. To clarify, I meant it as a method TnT may look at "more than 1 main" account activity. I believe they give special exception to multiple persons in the house if you contact them, but I only remember reading something like that many years ago, rules could have been changed by then.

 

As for my main point, I really am not trying to say it is okay to break the rules as long as you don't get caught/they can't prove it. I think TnT should enforce their rules but go by an "innocent till proven guilty" method instead of "suspicion = banning."

 

And since this topic is about people playing for others and what should be allowed, I believe it should be fine despite TnT's stance on it. An avatar going to someone is not going to break the game. Now if the person was getting the np given to their account for their services, I'd start having a problem with that as that could be seen as going around the daily limit. And while I have some doubts in the theory of having a daily limit, I do think it is reasonable enough.

[Alleycat]

I thought about that when I read that rule, but then you get into specific areas where it gets harder. Is playing a game, really considered part of "managing" an account? I think of managing as watching the over-all usage, managing the email, friends, etc. It'd be up to the kid to do things on the site, under the parent's supervision, as opposed to the parent doing it for them, because they're "managing."

 

What if the kid goes on a long field trip, and daddy is asked to feed the neopets. You need Neopoints to buy food, so why not play a game for that?

What if some cousin or friend is visiting and wants to play some Neopets games, and you happen to be logged in?

 

There is always an excuse you can use I suppose. Personally I think it's fine to play a game on someone else's account as long as it doesn't happen too often.

[Lycan]

I suppose my ideas about rules is very lenient.

I see nothing wrong with helping out a sibling or friend out, as long as they are actually trying.

It would be different if they give up after the first try, but let's say they have been playing the dang game for a year?

 

Eh, I think of it as making memories with people over the idea of breaking the rules.

[SlightlyCautious]

Personally, I don't see the point in getting an avatar/high score that you didn't earn.

 

My husband is good at games, and sometimes if there's a level I can't beat in a non-Neo game (like a PS3 game) I will have him play it so I can advance in the game if I'm really stuck on it.

It always annoys me, though, and I always end up going back and playing it until I not only beat the level, but get a better score.

 

Even if I had a sibling or cousin or something that played Neo and couldn't get an avatar, I wouldn't play it for them. Sure, I could beat say, Meepit Juice Break... but they could also play it on zen mode if they REALLY wanted it that bad... and then they would have done it themselves.

 

The closest I would come is borrowing pets for avatars. Even then, I'll only borrow the ones I have no interest in owning as a permie. For instance, I want a Krawk eventually, so I will never borrow one. I know I'll get it eventually.

[Angeló]

SlightlyCautious

 

you make some very good points ... I admire a competitive person .. but some people are just .. way too bad at games lol .. or is there nothing called "bad at games" and everyone can play with practice ??

[Octopus]

Anyone can get better with practice. Just have patience and hope that you have a good learning curve :).

[Secre]

And since this topic is about people playing for others and what should be allowed, I believe it should be fine despite TnT's stance on it. An avatar going to someone is not going to break the game. Now if the person was getting the np given to their account for their services, I'd start having a problem with that as that could be seen as going around the daily limit. And while I have some doubts in the theory of having a daily limit, I do think it is reasonable enough.

 

I'm just wondering what you mean by daily limit? Is there a limit on how much np we can earn in a day?

[Alleycat]

I'm just wondering what you mean by daily limit? Is there a limit on how much np we can earn in a day?

 

1000npx3 per game

2000npx3 for featured game

[Fever]

I, for one, think you should not be allowed to play games for others. If it's you know, helping them or giving tips and pieces of advice, go for it! But if you're a talented gamer (or even mediocre gamers like myself), then you definitely shouldn't do anything. Why? The same reason we aren't allowed to play games on our side accounts: CHEATING. People would get so many NP's that the economy would like, totally die (worse than it already is).

 

There is no line to draw: there already is one. If people were allowed to play games on other peoples' accounts, the need for the side account rule (or people obeying it) would go away completely because there would be no way to prove it's the same person playing on numerous accounts.

[Viridian]

Wow I'm the only one who voted yes! :P While I would not consider myself having a lot of game trophies, the ones that I did earn took me quite some time and therefore all that I've got make me feel like I have a lot. Same goes for avatars. I love avatars. So yes, comparing my view to the game as I had before I joined TDNforums, I feel I have made major process and have a lot of avatars and game trophies now.

 

Now for your hypothetical statement. I can see why TNT introduced the rule (of course mainly to prevent people from 'selling' their neopets services), however I tend to disagree with the rule slightly. There hasn't been another game where I've heard of the rule "Your friends or family may not ever touch your account or you'll be banned", and I personally find it ridiculous. If I just happen to be better than my brother at one game, and he's good at another game I'm bad at, I don't see the problem with helping each other out. I believe when we were younger we shared every game account (not neopets, but Runescape for example) we had, simply because we were a stronger team together than as one. To me it only helped our team spirit, rather than our 'cheating' spirit.

[Defender]

If it is just a matter of someone IRL playing the game for you, I don't see the problem. If you're good at a game I don't care. But a lot of people with tons of trophies are not just good at all the games. Heck, quite a lot of the games can be cheated by just slowing them down, and Neopets doesn't really seem to care.

[Gambit]

I voted no, but on second look I do have a few trophies. Most of those trophies, though, come from multiplayer and other games where trophies are awared automatically (Cheat, IOM, Cellblock,etc.).

To get game avatars, I would not ask for or pay someone to get them for me. The personal achievement that comes from getting it for myself is, I think, the most important part of the whole process. Sure the avvie is nice and shiny to show off, but at the end of the day, if I "cheated" to get it, then it's worth as much as a clickable avvie.

For TNT to freeze all those accounts, I think it had to do with exploiting the system - and playing games for someone else is just that. As somebody already pointed out, playing games earns NP and making NP on any account other than your main is a no-no. Looking at it that way, the only way it would be *maybe* okay to let someone get a game avvie for you is to donate all the NP to the wishing well after.

[Emu_]

um... well no because YOU are earning the avatar,for YOUR account, so it is cheating to get someone else to do it. It would be like little Johnny getting Usain Bolt to run in his primary school sports day so he could win the 1st place ribbon.

 

I'm saying this because I would consider myself good at some games on Neopets.... but I never get anywhere near the high score table. And what brought me to this post is trying to find real gamers who get high scores without cheating, and have therefore earned the avatars and trophies legitimately, otherwise they mean nothing, they just make you look good on paper.

 

Now I'm not asking for people to divulge their secrets, what I want to know is.....

 

How do you get a high score.... do you just keep on playing and playing and playing until you get it??

 

Also, there is another level to this 'trophy' collecting - what about all the users who show off their giant collection of trophies on YouTube - they don't even hide their usernames or pet names, so you can look them up. Some of them are frozen, some of them are not. They are admitting to cheating on YouTube.... so should they be reported?

 

I wanted to go for the avatars and trophies.... but seeing how many people cheat is putting me off even trying. I just get my NP and keep SAVING for my Chomby Morphing Potion...... :D

[Kuroida]

I voted no.

 

Anyways. I personally find most of TNTs arguments pathetic.

 

I can lend my sister 50 bucks in real life. I lend my sister 5np in neopets and I get banned. Wow.

 

TNT is making everything that was actually legit suddenly ban worthy and it's pissing me off. So you're a good gamer, you enjoy the games, you're legit and then bam! You get banned because you have too many game trophies and what not.

 

Same with some avatars that say "refreshing required". You stick something heavy on your refresh key for a few minutes and bam you're banned.

 

You like to restock to make legit money. You pick up a really cool item one of these days and they ban you the day after.

 

Honestly, TNT in my opinion just loves to ban people with no proof. Plus they don't hear your side of the story and you have to navigate the giant maze that is Neo customer support to even think about getting your account back. (and most of the time you never do)

 

 

Even if you weren't legit does it really matter how many trophies and avatars you have?

 

Really. Does it really affect TNT? Answer: it doesn't. It's not related to actual money to the site and really all they're getting is 1000np per game with a max of 3000np per day so the neo economy is relatively the same as if people played legit