Same Sex Marrige

[Secre]

Personally, I have no objection whatsoever to gay marriage. I've written several essays on this for classes etc and I have come to several conclusions:

 

1. Any Bible we read today we have to accept as a translation of another language and another context and therefore before we take anything literally we need to understand the context in which it was written. An example of this would be the society in which females were sole property of their fathers or husbands, the fact that the translation of homosexuality could be interpreted as 'prostitution', or 'abuse' but not as a consensual relationship.

 

2. Importance in the Bible is another key issue. If you take all of the references to homosexuality to be literal then there are 5 of them in the Bible - (Leviticus 18, 2 Sam 10, 1-5, Gen 19, Judges 19 and I can't remember the last one), however, there are hundreds of references to divorce, treating women as property and many other issues which are completely ignored in today's society. This tends to suggest to me that fundamentalist religion will pick which bits of the Bible that they wish to take literally but completely ignore the bits which they don't like.

 

3. Medical science has disproved several religious falicies - that left handedness is a sign of moral depravity, that depression is because you are living under unconfessed sin. Science allows us to see further and it can go hand in hand with religion, providing that you are willing to accept what is being shown and proven.

 

4. The church appears to be afraid to speak out on certain matters because it fears losing general public opinion, it feels that speaking favourably on same sex relationships would isolate some members. However:

1) Is the church the tail and public opinion the tail that wags it?

2) Hasn't the church already alienated many by not speaking out and not just gays, but equally their friends and family?

3) Does the church only speak out on non-controversial matters meaning that it cares nothing for justice? Are they worried more about public opinion than about fairness?

 

5. Most importantly, the golden rule that Jesus gave us all is to love one another. He gave this commandment to try to avoid a schism in the church as he knew that the day would come when we would all hate each other. But Jesus' hallmark was always diversity and we are to love one another regardless and even because of that diversity. We were all made in God's image and that has to be wholesome, we are made to be loved and to belong in a loving relationship and God should be in any relationship made of love.

 

There's my tuppence worth anyhow.

[Unstream]

The way I see it, God wants what's best for us and our race (the human race, not color). That's why I think He's not too fond of homosexuality. When He created us, we were in the perfect form, and that perfect form would be that a man and a woman would get married, and not man and man or woman and woman. But as the Bible so tells, we've fallen - and because of that, we'll sin. God understands that. We sin, but He still loves all of us. And I think ultimately He simply desires to have a relationship with all of us, and for us to make the choice to turn to Him.

 

Okay, I guess that was just a long-winded way of saying, I don't think sin really matters, and that if we sin that it matters at all. Jesus forgave all of that some 2000 years ago.

 

That's why I think the religious argument against homosexuality is just stupid.

[cuidenalosninos]

Well. Maybe god is awesome and understands that the overpopulation of the earth is a severe issue. Could be his way of solving it? (not that I believe that)

[Shane for Wax]

@Cuidnalosninos: There HAS been a theory bouncing around in the scientific community that there is a gay gene that switches on when the population becomes too large to curb the population growth. *shrugs*

[livvy]

@Cuidnalosninos: There HAS been a theory bouncing around in the scientific community that there is a gay gene that switches on when the population becomes too large to curb the population growth. *shrugs*

 

Seriously? o_O That's... really cool. It doesn't seem practical, and I don't believe it's true, but it's a really interesting theory. I shall have to research this.

[Unstream]

Doubt it. You could probably look at genetics and find a more reasonable answer.

And think about it, with more people, there will be more of a likelihood of homosexuals.

 

And honestly, I don't think it would bounce around the scientific community if it involved God. It'd be shot down at the door.

 

That sounds a lot like people saying God controls the weather. He doesn't - it's the uneven heating of the Earth.

[cuidenalosninos]

If he had a plan you'd think it would be a good plan.

There's loads of theories reguarding the scientific explanation of homosexuality. I'm usualy very sceptical though, most of the ones I have read seem to be mainly unfounded and possibly homophobic.

An interesting one is 'the human zoo' which explores along with many other subjects the existence of homosexuality amongst captive animals. Though it's an interesting theory philisophicly. There's very little substancial proof. Still a good read.

[Unstream]

Well I mean it's not hard to imagine homosexuality to be caused by a mutation in a gene. I mean, just think about it. Maybe it's a recessive gene that causes the body to produce a different kind of hormone, creating different sexual orientations.

 

I don't think it's that hard to conceive.

[Shane for Wax]

Doubt it. You could probably look at genetics and find a more reasonable answer.

And think about it, with more people, there will be more of a likelihood of homosexuals.

 

And honestly, I don't think it would bounce around the scientific community if it involved God. It'd be shot down at the door.

 

That sounds a lot like people saying God controls the weather. He doesn't - it's the uneven heating of the Earth.

I -did- mention genes in no way related to God or anything like that. I just said it was a theory involving a gene that may switch on and off to curb population. Homosexuality is not new, and it also hasn't always been a subject of such controversial nature.

 

In Ancient Greece and Rome you had loads of lesbians and gay guys. It was an accepted way of life. Only recently have people been spitting on the idea of two guys hugging one another or kissing each other or two women holding hands.

 

Love is love. If there is a God, he can't mess around with love it's one of the rules even God has to follow. I think if there is a God, He certainly wants us to be happy in any way we can find it.

 

The Goddess accepts everyone, no matter what. Gay, straight, bisexual, transgender, white, black. Whatever, worship Her as you are.

[Strawberri]

It's good to see that the majority of people are speaking out to support gay marriage. After all - if you don't want a gay marriage then don't have one!

But why take away the rights of someone else when they're not hurting anyone? I'm gay and married and I don't think it devalues any other marriage.

 

And CAV2 - chances are that if you're around 10 other people, there will be at least one gay or bisexual person there too! (Research also shows that those who are secretly gay are the most likely to oppose it! ...It's called Reaction Formation)

[Shane for Wax]

Straight people have been ruining marriage for centuries. As was mentioned, it comes down to only 'enforcing' parts of the Bible that YOU like.

 

May I point you to this video?

"Prop 8 - The Musical" starring Jack Black, John C. Reilly, and many more... from Jack Black

 

It's really good and really hits on all the issues that have been mentioned in this thread. :) Plus, with Jack Black how can you go wrong?

 

My favorite song: You Pick and Choose!

[CAV of Gang Green]

Agreed with you Wax, that's why I don't go to church or do anything religous outside of celebrating Christmas. And that's a lie too. Christ wasn't born on Christmas.

[-Ryan]

Well see the thing about all of this is that marriage gives you certain legal rights. Homosexual couples in a civil union don't have said rights. They want those rights. If a civil union had the same rights as a marriage, then I bet about 75% of homosexual couples would be satisfied. That's why it's called in a lot of cases the debate over Gay Rights.

 

And I was raised and consider myself a devoted Christian. I believe though that God should be a choice, after all, he gave us a choice. Gay couples may decide that they don't choose to believe him. Then what we consider to be sin doesn't apply to them anymore. Do we have the right to tell them what they're doing is wrong just because our God says it is?

 

And if you're going to argue from a religious standpoint, let's outlaw Santa while we're at it, because that promotes lying and lying is against the laws of the Bible.

 

Most laws today are to protect people from physical and financial harm. I don't see how gay marriage can harm anyone.

 

Oh, and here's an interesting thing that was brought up last time we had this debate on this forum:

 

 

 

I voted "yes".

 

Oh my gosh, that lsit is hilarious and I kinda wanna e-mail it to my friend who says gay people ruin our society.

[Shane for Wax]

Agreed with you Wax, that's why I don't go to church or do anything religous outside of celebrating Christmas. And that's a lie too. Christ wasn't born on Christmas.

The Christians decided to celebrate Christmas in the winter to coincide with the Pagan holiday of Yule so that they could convert Pagans to Christianity a bit easier.

 

Oh btw, shellfish is an abomination. No shrimp cocktails. Clothes made of two different fabrics is an abomination. All of those Bible thumpers wearing their suits are wearing abominations. Oh and remarrying after you've been divorced is an abomination too.

[Domino]

I am for Gay Marriage. I live in California, and I was extremely disappointed when Prop 8 passed. I don't feel like it is right that people should be discriminated against for who they love. I'm straight, and I'm a Catholic, but I think that everyone should be given equal opportunity and treated the same way as much as possible regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation. Of course, that's in an ideal world. In the real world, people act a bit differently...

[CAV of Gang Green]

The Christians decided to celebrate Christmas in the winter to coincide with the Pagan holiday of Yule so that they could convert Pagans to Christianity a bit easier.

 

Oh btw, shellfish is an abomination. No shrimp cocktails. Clothes made of two different fabrics is an abomination. All of those Bible thumpers wearing their suits are wearing abominations. Oh and remarrying after you've been divorced is an abomination too.

 

So is having pride for your achivements. Everything is an abomanation.

[Shane for Wax]

So... no one is perfect and can't really say they are better in the eyes of the Lord. Even I know that! :P

[Kelly]

Love is love, whether it be between a man and a woman, a woman and a woman, or a man and a man. There's no fault in loving; everyone's heart works the same way.

[tempdisplay]

I hat when you get condemmed for having a different opinion, and when people jump on bandwagons, sheesh. I do like some of your arguments though, really eye-opening.

[Macabre]

I agree wholeheartedly with Livvy. Live and let live, after all.

[Masaryk]

I think that, in this case, many people may feel justified in defending their opinion that gays should have the right to marry. It wasn't too long ago that black, brown, and Asian people in the United States did not have the same rights as white people. At some point in recent history, most North Americans (and Europeans) concluded that it was "wrong" to deny rights to people of colour. After all, they are still genetically human, not sub-human as white people once believed. They display all of the same mental traits and abilities as white people, but they display a few different physiological traits. The previous popular opinion that people of colour are deviant and sub-human had not been backed up by science, so white society gradually changed its collective opinion about skin colour. Sure there are still some people who refuse to agree, but society feels justified in condemning this opinion, because it shows intolerance toward a group of people.

 

Fast-forward to the present. Now we see the same sort of attitude toward gays that was previously applied to people of colour (and disabled people). Gays are still genetically human, and display all of the same physical and mental traits as straight people, but they have one physiological difference - a sexual attraction to members of the same gender. They cannot "fix" this anymore than a black person can "fix" their skin colour, nor a diabetic can "fix" their pancreas. It's not a choice; it's something that is determined via a genetic expression during fetal development.

 

So, essentially, what people are protesting is intolerance for a group of humans that are physiologically different from the majority of humans. People who are voicing an opinion in support of gay rights aren't jumping on a bandwagon. They are following their ethical compasses toward the belief that all humans deserve the same legal rights in society. They are protesting against intolerance for congenital differences.

 

In most countries, marriage is a legal agreement between two (or more, depending on the country) adults. It provides them certain legal rights with regard to their relationship and society. Usually, these rights involve the management of property. For instance, in my country (Canada) marriage ensures that, when I die, my partner will inherit all of my material wealth (without a will), my partner can claim spousal benefits from my workplace, and I never have to testify against my partner in a court of law.

 

Marriage is also a religious union, for some religions. Religions that have sacramental marriage seem to want to have a monopoly on the concept of marriage, but this does not reflect the reality of our world. Legal marriages predated sacramental marriage. Legal marriages exists in countries with religions and cultures that do not practice sacramental marriage. Legal marriage, in the past, has not always been between "a man and a woman," because it was sometimes a "business agreement" to strengthen the wealth and resources of a family, political entity, etc.

 

Since marriage is largely a legal union, that affords both partners certain legal rights, people who support equal rights for all humans tend to support gay marriage. It shows acceptance of gays as human equals, as they should be, since they are human. Homosexual relationships do not harm society. They are consensual unions between two adults, just as straight marriages are usually (there are still arranged marriages that are not consensual). Just because some people find the idea of gay sexual relations to be unappealing, they should not deny gay people the right to love and happiness and equal human rights. Remember, gays likely find your heterosexual preferences to be repulsive too.

 

I've noticed that most of the people that are quick to oppose gay marriage rights, on this forum, are young. Tolerance for people who look or act differently from how each of us perceives ourselves is something that most people develop as they become more aware of the world at large. When we are young, we tend to be afraid of things that don't reflect our personal preferences: we shy away from people who dress differently, listen to different music, have different hobbies, etc. As we grow up, most people take an interest in discovering the diversity of our world and determine that this diversity is important to the growth of society as a whole. We still might not want to dye our hair purple or listen to rap music or whatever, but we stop condemning people for their differences and we become more in favour of individuality.

[Mikey_Joe_Mc]

Personally, I don't agree with the idea, but I also don't think it's something the government can ban. I was born and reared Catholic, and I follow the teachings.

However, if the government says they can ban same sex marriage, what other types of marriages, or suffrages, or any other "right", will they ban?

I may not agree with it, but it's not something that can be regulated. Everyone will be judged by their character and actions later, so where's the government to step in and play God?

 

This is sometimes kind of hard for me to have an opinion on, or at least share my opinion on, because I have a good number of friends who are homosexual (both male and female). I'd like to support them, but I also cannot turn away from my faith.

[Kex]

I have yet to hear any good non-religious reason to keep gays from marrying. At all. And religious issues shouldn't influence the law; that they do at the moment is a flaw in the system that should be corrected, not upheld. Whether or not to allow gay marriage shouldn't even be a question. I mean, why would you say to a gay couple "sorry, but there's not enough cave chia in your relationship; if one of you goes to the ER then you just get to deal with not being able to see each other"?

 

EDIT: PFFF love the censoring there. XD

[Nyssa]

I'm sorry, what? There's not enough cave chia? Is that a censor for a certain female bodypart?

[Kex]

I'm sorry, what? There's not enough cave chia? Is that a censor for a certain female bodypart?

 

The board censored it, yes. XD I'm not sure why; it wouldn't censor, say, pancreas, but there you go.