Desert Diplomacy Begins!

[zawitri]

IF I have this right so far, The Illuminated Manuscript must have been stolen by invisibility at midnight, meaning that the Dagger Clan must have been up to no good at 1 AM. (Using clues 1, 2, 5, 6 and 8). Anyone else get this?

 

EDIT: This also means that the Pyramid Prowlers stole the manuscript (by invisiiblity @ midnight).

 

I don't get how "The Illuminated Manuscript must have been stolen by invisibility at midnight", could you explain for me?

 

I have been staring at the clues for way too long...

[savamal]

Hi everyone, it's been a while...

 

I have a major problem since the puzzle cannot be solved:

 

With the 10th clue, we have all time slots: Midnight, 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM and 5:00 AM

 

Considering Clues 2 and 5, "bribing a guard" could not be done at midnight and therefore:

A/ Pyramid Prowlers stole at Midnight

B/ Pocket chess was performed by bribing the guard

 

Considering Clue 6, a guild stole at 3:00 AM and another guild stole by bribing the guard, therefore:

C/ With B, Pocket chess was not stolen at 3:00 AM

 

Considering Clue 9, Pocket Chess was not stolen at 2:00 AM, therefore:

D/ With B, bribing the guard could not happen at 2:00 AM

 

From Clues 2 and 5, C and D, bribing a guard could only be done at 1:00 AM or at 5:00 AM

 

However, it cannot be done at 1:00 AM because of A (Pyramid Prowlers stole at midnight) and clue 2 (Oasis Runners have to steal before the bribe). Therefore

E/ Remains 5:00AM for the bribe

 

Considering the Clue 3 and E, we have:

F/ Distraction cannot be performed at 5:00 AM -> Wedding Ring was stolen by using distraction

H/ Sun Chasers stole at 5:00 AM

 

With H, it means that the Sun Chasers stole the Pocket Chess by bribing the guard at 5:00 AM, which contradicts Clue 9!

 

Or the remaining solution is that the time slots are ordered as follows:

1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM, 5:00 AM and Midnight. This is a non-sens since it means TWO nights of robbery...

[siniri]

Savamal, I came up with the same conflict. There are a number of possibilities (clue numbers are counted from the bottom up since new ones appear at the top):

1. TNT made an error in writing clue 6, and meant to write it like clue 7 (so that you shouldn't assume bribing couldn't have happened at 3am).
2. There are actually 6 times (or even an entire 6x6 grid), and we just need to wait for more info. (If there are 6 times and only 5 of everything else, one of those times would be a red herring.)
3. One (or more) of the witnesses is giving us false info (but we'd need to be told more about this in a separate clue to have any hope of solving it).

I've submitted a bug report asking whether TNT made a mistake with clue 6.

 

I'm not a big fan of people posting the actual solutions (or partial solutions) -- that seems a step too far to me (you're not supposed to share actual answers to other types of puzzles, though you can help with general problem-solving techniques, etc.). Here's a guide for how to solve logic puzzles for people struggling. (Note that sample 7.1 will get you into the same inconsistency Savamal found -- you can either assume that a clue like 6 -- "neither x who ___ nor y who ____ is z" means only "x is not z" and "y is not z" -- and does NOT also mean "x is not y" for now -- or you can assume that the grid should be 6x6, or that someone is lying. I went with "TNT messed up the clue" and managed to get 7 checks and 69 X's in my grid, by going back and forth between clues, trying a few different "what if this is this"s, and eliminating a few other things.)

 

JN has an online grid for you to fill out (which sadly auto-saves and doesn't let you branch off and save more than one, so you'll have to do your "what-if"s on paper or save your starting grid elsewhere and manually revert to it if your what-if doesn't pan out).

 

How a what-if works: write down the assumption you make. Circle it, star it -- make sure you keep track of what you assumed. Then fill out the grid until either you can't fill in any more (in which case you haven't eliminated that assumption -- it might be true, but it might not be) OR you reach a contradiction with one of the clues (which is actually what you'd prefer to happen...). If a contradiction happens, then that assumption must be false, and you can add an X to your grid. It can be a lot of work to get a single X. A good place to start for an assumption is the "guild A and guild B are, in some order, guild C and guild D" type of clue. Because you can assume, for example, that guild A is guild C -- and if you get a contradiction, that means guild A can't be guild C, and therefore guild A is guild D AND guild B is guild C. A decent amount of info for an assumption (and the assumption is more likely to lead to a contradiction because assuming guild A is guild C also assumes guild B is guild D).

[Neopets9738368]

Hi everyone, it's been a while...

 

I have a major problem since the puzzle cannot be solved:

 

With the 10th clue, we have all time slots: Midnight, 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM and 5:00 AM

 

Considering Clues 2 and 5, "bribing a guard" could not be done at midnight and therefore:

A/ Pyramid Prowlers stole at Midnight

B/ Pocket chess was performed by bribing the guard

 

Considering Clue 6, a guild stole at 3:00 AM and another guild stole by bribing the guard, therefore:

C/ With B, Pocket chess was not stolen at 3:00 AM

 

Considering Clue 9, Pocket Chess was not stolen at 2:00 AM, therefore:

D/ With B, bribing the guard could not happen at 2:00 AM

 

From Clues 2 and 5, C and D, bribing a guard could only be done at 1:00 AM or at 5:00 AM

 

However, it cannot be done at 1:00 AM because of A (Pyramid Prowlers stole at midnight) and clue 2 (Oasis Runners have to steal before the bribe). Therefore

E/ Remains 5:00AM for the bribe

 

Considering the Clue 3 and E, we have:

F/ Distraction cannot be performed at 5:00 AM -> Wedding Ring was stolen by using distraction

H/ Sun Chasers stole at 5:00 AM

 

With H, it means that the Sun Chasers stole the Pocket Chess by bribing the guard at 5:00 AM, which contradicts Clue 9!

 

Or the remaining solution is that the time slots are ordered as follows:

1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM, 5:00 AM and Midnight. This is a non-sens since it means TWO nights of robbery...

I may be brain jumbled, but I have only 2 possibilities of who used bribery: Dagger Clan and Desert Scarabs.

[zawitri]

I also have only two possibilities for bribery and they are Dagger Clan and Desert Scarabs.

 

Clue 6: Neither the guild that committed the theft at 3:00 a.m. nor the guild that bribed a guard stole the Magical Blue Amulet.

 

--> The clue means that Magical Blue Amulet was not stolen at 3 am and the guild who stole it did not bribe the guard. I don't think you can assume that the Pocket Chess was not stolen at 3 am.

 

I don't see anything wrong with the clues so far.

[Neopets9738368]

I also have only two possibilities for bribery and they are Dagger Clan and Desert Scarabs.

 

Clue 6: Neither the guild that committed the theft at 3:00 a.m. nor the guild that bribed a guard stole the Magical Blue Amulet.

 

--> The clue means that Magical Blue Amulet was not stolen at 3 am and the guild who stole it did not bribe the guard. I don't think you can assume that the Pocket Chess was not stolen at 3 am.

 

I don't see anything wrong with the clues so far.

Same. I don't have any glitches so far.

11 checks, 85 X's.. Still going. Siniri, can you keep us posted if TNT tells you there's a glitch so we can change if needed?

[savamal]

I also have only two possibilities for bribery and they are Dagger Clan and Desert Scarabs.

 

Clue 6: Neither the guild that committed the theft at 3:00 a.m. nor the guild that bribed a guard stole the Magical Blue Amulet.

 

--> The clue means that Magical Blue Amulet was not stolen at 3 am and the guild who stole it did not bribe the guard. I don't think you can assume that the Pocket Chess was not stolen at 3 am.

 

I don't see anything wrong with the clues so far.

 

Neither the guild that committed the theft at 3:00 a.m. nor the guild that bribed a guard stole the Magical Blue Amulet.

 

I don't agree. This is what I understand:

- the item that a guild did steal at 3:00 AM was not the Magical Blue Amulet

- the item that another guild stole by bribing the guard was not the Magical Blue Amulet

Therefore, bribing the guard could not happen at 3:00 AM

 

Why TNT would bother to mention two guilds ?

 

Corresponding to your interpretation, it is more like Clue 7: The Royal Telescope was not stolen at 3:00 a.m., nor was it stolen by the Desert Scarabs.

In this case, only a guild, namely the Desert Scarabs, is involved and it doesn't exclude the fact that the Desert Scarabs could steal an item at 3:00 AM

[siniri]

Exactly, Savamal. It's like this: "Neither the state with the largest land mass nor the state with the largest population is Texas" is equivalent to saying "Neither Alaska nor California is Texas." If Alaska had both the largest land mass and population, that statement would be akin to saying "Neither Alaska nor Alaska is Texas" -- which is not something people would say, so logic puzzle writers would not say it that way. Instead, they might say "Texas has neither the largest land mass nor the largest population," which is only saying something about a single state -- Texas. Of course, TNT probably doesn't have a logic puzzle writer on staff, so they may not be adhering properly to the rules of logic puzzles. But people who do solve logic puzzles know this rule, and it's confusing for us for them not to adhere to it.

[zawitri]

Oh, so it's about the specialities of the language, then! Well, English is not my mother tongue and I would not have understood it that way. :) For me it just says that there are two guilds.

[leverhelven]

OH MY GOD, MY HEAD!!! :S This possible contradiction of the clues is a nightmare!!!

 

Also, I had marked on my grid that Sun Chasers could NOT have bribed the guard, but now I don't even remember why I did it! I've unmarked it after reading these posts. Oh my. And I thought I was good with these kinds of puzzles, I really did! :(

 

ps: which Neopets board has posts about this puzzle? Anyone knows?

ETA: just found out there's A WHOLE NEW BOARD for it. *facepalm*

[siniri]

Leverhelven, it's the Desert Diplomacy board. The logic puzzle guide I linked gives examples of how to translate certain phrases (based loosely off the Desert Diplomacy puzzle) into "X is Y" or "X is not Y" and how to fill in the info on a grid. It might be especially helpful for non-English speakers. But I think this is actually logic-puzzle-ese, not just an English thing, because some native English speakers are confused. Interestingly, a Portuguese speaker says that the Portuguese translation is unamibiguous about clue 6 meaning "bribery can't be at 3am." Since I don't speak Portuguese, I can't confirm if that's true (Google Translate rendered it directly back into the English sentence... which might mean that's what TNT used to translate it in the first place...).

[leverhelven]

Leverhelven, it's the Desert Diplomacy board. The logic puzzle guide I linked gives examples of how to translate certain phrases (based loosely off the Desert Diplomacy puzzle) into "X is Y" or "X is not Y" and how to fill in the info on a grid. It might be especially helpful for non-English speakers. But I think this is actually logic-puzzle-ese, not just an English thing, because some native English speakers are confused. Interestingly, a Portuguese speaker says that the Portuguese translation is unamibiguous about clue 6 meaning "bribery can't be at 3am." Since I don't speak Portuguese, I can't confirm if that's true (Google Translate rendered it directly back into the English sentence... which might mean that's what TNT used to translate it in the first place...).

 

Hmmm, I hadn't thought about checking the Portuguese clues! I'm doing it right now, and clue 6 is this one:

 

"Nem a associação que cometeu o roubo às 3:00 da madrugada nem a associação que subornou a guarda roubou o Amuleto Mágico Azul."

 

Neither the guild that commited the theft at 3:00 am nor the guild that bribed the guard stole the Magical Blue Amulet.

 

...Which is... just like the original English clue indeed! o_O I just don't think TNT used any translating machine, the Brazilian version of the site usually makes sense. Usually.

But in whichever language, the clue does make it seem that they're talking about two guilds, right? So bribery couldn't have happened at 3:00 am... right?

 

...I guess it's too late at night for me to do it.

[siniri]

Yes, leverhelven, it should mean that bribery wasn't used at 3am. If you assume there are only 5 things in each category, though, then bribery would end up being at 5am (along with Pocket Chess), and would thus have to be Sun Catchers (contradicted by clue 9) or distraction (which is impossible if it's bribery...). Unless someone is lying (which we might be told in a later clue). So either TNT made a mistake in wording clue 6, or a witness is mistaken, or there are 6+ things per category... I sent in a bug report, and we'll just have to see. For now, I saved a grid on JN's site assuming that TNT made a mistake in clue 6 (allowing bribery to be at 3am). I don't mind redoing my grid.

 

I've only solved 1-2 logic puzzles where a witness was lying. It was really tricky to figure out, but it was solvable. (You interviewed suspects, and it made sense that the guilty would lie, and you knew there was only one liar.) I think that kind of puzzle is really hard to write, and I think it would be difficult for most Neopians to solve (especially the younger ones and those with little logic puzzle experience -- I think this one is already plenty hard for a rookie without that added complication).

[leverhelven]

I've only solved 1-2 logic puzzles where a witness was lying. It was really tricky to figure out, but it was solvable. (You interviewed suspects, and it made sense that the guilty would lie, and you knew there was only one liar.) I think that kind of puzzle is really hard to write, and I think it would be difficult for most Neopians to solve (especially the younger ones and those with little logic puzzle experience -- I think this one is already plenty hard for a rookie without that added complication).

 

I love this kind of grid puzzle but I've indeed never seen one in which there was false information. It does indeed seem to be rare. I don't think TNT would go that far. I think they either screwed up or there's one additional time, 4:00 am (which would still be weird for a puzzle to have this shape). I really hope tomorrow's clue claryfies all this mess...

[Spyke]

I'm actually feeling a lot better after reading all of this because I found that same issue when I tried to link the Pocket Chess and method to a time. I didn't try submitting the issue, just because I was hoping more clues would potentially solve the problem. A time slot at four might be useful, for sure. I had considered the fact that we didn't have all the information yet soo... I was just going to wait it out. I'm definitely interested in hearing what TNT says about the ticket that was submitted though!

[Azurablue]

Sorry if I posted something that I shouldn't. From what I had been reading, everyone was trying to help each other solve the puzzle as a team. I'll stop posting anything here except a sincere wish for everyone to have fun with it, which is what the original intent of the game was meant to be... I hope.

 

For those who struggle with logic problems and how to do them, you could try googling "how to work logic problems". There should be tons of places with simple instructions, printable grids and so on.

 

Good luck to everyone! :)

[zawitri]

I also wasn't thinking that sharing the thoughts about this was not allowed. :mellow: Anyway, I hope all of you will have fun with the puzzle! :)

 

So far no problems or contradictions with my grid, not even with the newest clue about Pyramid Prowlers stealing the Illuminated Menuscript. I don't know if I'm not noticing something. One more clue could solve the complete grid for me.

[leverhelven]

Some people on the boards are saying they have completed their grid with today's clue -- which is totally far-fetched for me to think. Anyone else has managed to finish it?? o_O

[siniri]

That wasn't a personal complaint against anyone; I just was surprised because usually TDN doesn't allow actual answer sharing. I especially understand why people who are uncertain were posting their partial solutions as checks -- and I think saying "is this how I should interpret this one clue" is fine... but I knew we were fast approaching being able to solve the entire thing, and I didn't want someone to share the whole answer here, since TNT frowns on it.

 

If you assume that clue 6's "neither x nor y is z" means "x is not z" and "y is not z" only (and does NOT assume "x is not y," as it properly should), you can fill out all the times for each guild, and you should have 3/5 of the methods and items linked to guilds and times (so you should only have one-of-these-two-guilds-used-one-of-these-two-methods and one-of-these-two-guilds-stole-one-of-these-two-items left -- i.e., 4 empty squares in 5 of the 6 areas of the grid).

 

If you need help getting to that, I suggest rereading each clue and seeing if you can "solve" that clue now. The especially helpful clues are "of guild x and guild y, one is guild z and one is guild w" and "guild m stole something before guild n" (especially if it gives a specific time window). Save your grid, then ask yourself "what if guild x is guild z" (write your assumption down! nothing's worse than solving a whole series of clues regarding an assumption, and then forgetting what that assumption was), keep trying to solve until you're stuck, and see if there's a contradiction. If there's not, ask "what if guild x is guild w" and see if there's a contradiction there. If there is a contradiction, you know that guild x cannot be the contradictory guild -- which, for example, if guild x cannot be guild z, you then know that guild x is guild w AND guild y is guild z.

 

For the time clues, just keep going back to them and seeing if you can eliminate any times from one or the other in order to make sure the restriction holds true (e.g., if you know guild c stole before guild d, and guild c's earliest time is now 2am, guild d's earliest time must be 3am. or if you know guild e stole 1 hour before guild f, and you just discovered that gold f stole at 3am or 5am, you actually know that guild f must have stolen at 5am -- no one stole 1 hour before that -- and guild e stole at 2am).

 

Finally, if you get stuck-stuck, check your grid for symmetry. Follow along each checkmark in both directions, and make sure that you've carried over every negative for one aspect into the box for the other aspect. For example, if you know that the Sphinx Links stole Coltzan's shrine, and you know that Coltzan's shrine was not stolen at 2am, 3am, or 5am, and you know that the Sphinx Links did not steal at 12am, they could actually only have stolen the shrine at 1am. And once you know that they stole at 1am, you might be able to connect the Sphinx Links', shrine's, and 1am's X's for method to determine the method.

 

You'll also want to check your grid for any 4-X rows or columns. Once you have one of those, you can put a check mark in the only remaining box.

 

I don't think I actually had to use this additional method for this particular grid, but an advanced grid solving method involves checking for 3 X's (by row or column) for each area of the grid. If you have two matching 3-X's, then you know those two of category x are the only choices for category y, and vice versa. I'm going to try to demonstrate, though I'm not sure how well this will work.

 

If you have:

 

a b c d e

f X _ _ _ _

g X X X _ _

h O X X X X

i X _ _ X _

j X X X _ _

 

You actually can add 3 more X's to that grid. You know that d and e are g and j, in some combination. If d is g, then e has to be j. Conversely, if d is j, e has to be g. And those are the only choices for d, so 1 of those must be true. Therefore, f cannot be d or e. And i cannot be d or e. So your grid should actually look like this:

 

a b c d e

f X _ _ X X

g X X X _ _

h O X X X X

i X _ _ X X

j X X X _ _

 

EDIT: After I filled out what I could, I went back through each clue to confirm that I hadn't made a mistake and there was no additional info to be gleaned from any of the clues. I'm quite certain that there should still be 4 blanks left in 5 of the 6 areas of the grid. Anyone who filled it out completely made an additional assumption.

 

ETA: If someone is really stuck and none of the above methods work, feel free to PM me your grid, and I can tell you which clue(s) to look at to help unstick you. A word of warning: I have a pretty busy schedule this week (especially tomorrow), so it might take me a while to get back to you.

Edited August 18, 2014 by siniri

[Neopets9738368]

Sorry if I posted something that I shouldn't. From what I had been reading, everyone was trying to help each other solve the puzzle as a team. I'll stop posting anything here except a sincere wish for everyone to have fun with it, which is what the original intent of the game was meant to be... I hope.

 

For those who struggle with logic problems and how to do them, you could try googling "how to work logic problems". There should be tons of places with simple instructions, printable grids and so on.

 

Good luck to everyone! :)

I also wasn't thinking that sharing the thoughts about this was not allowed. :mellow: Anyway, I hope all of you will have fun with the puzzle! :)

 

So far no problems or contradictions with my grid, not even with the newest clue about Pyramid Prowlers stealing the Illuminated Menuscript. I don't know if I'm not noticing something. One more clue could solve the complete grid for me.

I didn't know it wasn't allowed either. Didn't mean any harm. I honestly don't see the big deal trying to share clues as a group, but I'll adhere so I don't anger anyone. This has been fun, my grid is almost complete :-)

[deboratibi]

I got kind of bored of this event, so I'm casually trying to solve it, I'm not getting too involved... I just want to know if I'm too far behind. I have seven green checks on my grid. Does that sound okay?

[Azurablue]

Something occured to me that I could mention, in case it helps everyone out a little. I've been doing these kinds of puzzles for years and I developed a little side trick that sometimes helps me to solve them when there is a time factor involved. (This is happened before this, that happened before that, this was at midnight, etc.) On a separate piece of paper (I use quad 4 to 1"), I'll write down a bar grid with the times at the top, like this:

 

12 ] 1 ] 2 ] 3 ] 5

] ] ] ]

] ] ] ]

 

In each column, I'll write down the pieces of the clue that I need to figure out, such as in #2: The guild that used invisibility commited the theft one hour before the Dagger Clan. (I give each an abbreviation as well to save space: inv = invisibility, DC = Dagger Clan.

 

Using this, I get something like:

 

12 ] 1 ] 2 ] 3 ] 5

inv ] inv ] inv ] inv ] -

- ] DC ] DC ] DC ] DC

 

You know from the clue that DC was one hour after inv, so it can't be at 5 AM, nor can inv be at 3 AM. Change the grid accordingly.

 

12 ] 1 ] 2 ] 3 ] 5

inv ] inv ] inv ] - ] -

- ] DC ] DC ] DC ] -

 

When you get a bunch of these in columns from all you know from your partially completed grid, it can give you things that you never saw before.

 

I hope that helps. :)

 

[leverhelven]

Aw man, this is getting so long and confusing I'm about to give up. I'm looking at my grid right now and I'm frowning so hard it's gonna give me a headache. Right now I can't think of anything other than "Ain't nobody got time for dat!" -_-

[decchild]

I got kind of bored of this event, so I'm casually trying to solve it, I'm not getting too involved... I just want to know if I'm too far behind. I have seven green checks on my grid. Does that sound okay?

 

I have seven checks on my grid so far too. I'm getting stuck on a few of them, and staring too long isn't helping either. =/

 

EDIT

 

I just ran into the PC conundrum. Uh oh.

[slavecrown]

 

I have seven checks on my grid so far too. I'm getting stuck on a few of them, and staring too long isn't helping either. =/

I have twenty green checks on my grid (but then I play a LOT of logic puzzles). Try carefully reading the clues that say "Of GUILD and METHOD, one is TIME and the other is ITEM" (or however it's arranged). The guild and method in that example can only be either that time OR the item, so if the item listed has another time that has an X, then the guild and method listed also can't possibly be that time either (and vice versa if the time listed has a different item that it can't be). This also works in reverse - the time and item listed in that example can ONLY be the guild or method listed, so use the same technique there and you should be able to get more green checks on your grid. Hopefully this makes sense to you and isn't too convoluted, haha!