Social Rights on Cross-Gender Interests

[Piticent]

Hi TDN community! It's been a while :( BUT! nonetheless, I didn't forget about you! This issue has been bothering me for a while now, and I just want to see what other peoples' opinions are. Let me explain the topic.

In modern day society, there are boys and girls. Before the LGBT community attacks me, I understand that there are minorities, but for the purpose of this conversation, I'm referencing only boys and girls. Back to the topic at hand. I feel like in today's society, there has recently been a general interest of the female population in buying/doing things generally considered "masculine." That's fine. I don't have a grudge against girls for taking the liberty to do what they want instead of fitting stereotypes. Go girls! BUT...I feel like this is the opposite for males. Whenever a boy does something feminine, like say, a finger wag, a hip gyration, buying a "girly" toy like Polly Pockets or Bratz, watching certain movies like Twilight, reading 50 Shades, et cetera, he is generally ostracized by the rest of society for not being masculine. Now, I don't have a problem with people having opinions, but I disagree with this "one-way street." If a girl is free to break stereotypes and do masculine things, why isn't a boy?

Is it because of general beliefs that chivalry and mensch-ism still should be in place today? Some people, I suppose, could make that argument. For example, I can't think of a person who hasn't heard the idea that its impolite to hit a girl; its atrocious, and its considered domestic violence. Bla, bla bla. Now, don't get me wrong, I do agree. It isn't right to hit anybody. Depending on the situation, it could be violence or bullying and could lead to other bad habits or psychological damage. However, what I DO find ridiculous is that girls claim that this rule is, too, a "one way street," and that they can hit boys as hard as, when, how, and where they please. This is not right. If it is impolite for boys to hit girls, I think its basic human decency that girls cant hit boys! It could lead to the same effects mentioned above.

Is it because girls are a minority? I don't think so. According to this website, there are about 50,226,246 more boys than girls in the United States. They outnumber us. By a lot. Yes, true, they did not receive voting rights for a long time, they were stereotyped into not getting factory jobs until WWI, and I realize that there are a lot of mean female jokes involving kitchens, but I think that they have overcome that by now. Women have as much respect in society, if not more, as men. So, personally, I think minority status is ruled out. Of course, I could create a whole other topic about how minorities have switched, and while minorities like blacks have fought for equal rights, they got a bit more, and now white males are actually forced into being minorities, but I'll save that for later...

 

It really just frustrates me. I'm not a feminine person, but of course I'll fall into a joke about looking at your nails one way versus another, or something of the sort. If girls can be tomboys, I think that its degrading of society to think that boys can't be "tomgirls." I make this term up because sadly there is no term for it. That is why I cry out to you, TDN. The only population I can think of even close to "tomgirls" is Bronies...

 

Sorry my post is so long, but please share your opinions! I'm very interested...

[Anime]

It all links back to one very simple thing that has dominated our culture for far, far too long:

 

Being female is seen as "weak" while being male is seen as "strong".

 

As such, it becomes okay for a woman to do things seen as "for men" because she's "moving up" and "acting stronger", while a man doing things that are "for women" is "moving down" and "being weak". And it's a horrible double standard, and total bull crap, but that's the mindset behind that particular reaction.

 

Really, it shouldn't matter what anyone likes or wants to do and no one should be ostracized for doing anything they enjoy doing (provided they're not harming someone else, obvs)...

[Ali Cat]

I realize you specified you were talking about boys and girls specifically, but I think this topic easily reaches beyond that. When you talk about anatomy and societal expectations with a specification of people choosing to mix things up, you start talking about gender fluidity. Gender is viewed more as a spectrum nowadays, not A and B. From my view, it seems that society is moving towards more fluid gender roles as a whole, though males are having a more difficult time of this because of the exact reason Anime said: the perception of strong and weak. Ideally, unfair expectations for gender roles wouldn't even exist; people could simply act in what way is most comfortable for them. Realistically, I'm hoping that it'll become less of a stigma for people to move throughout the gender spectrum in general.

[funkyvixen]

Boys are free to break stereotypes but you do have to understand that this is never done easily or overnight. Being a tomboy or masculine female was not always accepted in American society. In fact, some females were sent to mental asylums for treatment because it was considered so abnormal. There are still people that feel that is is wrong. It is easy to think that girls have this luxury because we are seen as the weaker gender, etc but females had to fight for that and continue to fight for that. Women are still underpaid for doing the same work, overlooked for promotion, and not seen as fit for leadership even by other females.

If you want to break gender lines then go ahead but understand that you will have to fight and not care what others think about it.

As for the minority thing, I think you mean there are 50 million more females then males. Also the term is loosely about number and more about rights and equality. There are countries were the majority of the population is oppressed and/ treated like second class citizens even though they outnumber the group in control but we would consider them a minority due to their status in society.

[Anime]

I understand what you're saying, but I think you missed the mark a bit as to what the topic is about. However, you do bring up good points, even if they do have an unfortunate tone of defeatism and "mainstream" feminism, which I'm sure was wholly unintentional, but unfortunate nonetheless.

 

Feminism and gender equality has come a very long way in the past 40 years, but there's no denying it still has a ways to go until we all have equal pay, truly equal rights, ect, and most of that change requires a change of mindset in the population at large. Until society leaves behind the medieval mindset of "women are weak and not fit to lead" we can't achieve true equality. And yes, this is an uphill battle that's going to take a long time to win in full but we've come a long way, as I said before, and if we don't keep fighting it'll just take even longer to get there and we'll lose what ground we've gained.

[coltom]

I'm not sure what the backbone is of your question, although I certainly feel the flesh that you have wrapped it.

 

I'd only like to make one point, as I am an ancient and part of the class of people that are likely to have hiring, promotion and similar power over most of your generation. Don't for one ice sliding minute think that discrimination is mainly a thing of the past. It might not be as transparent as it was in my youth, but it is there in many and subtle ways. If you are lucky the chauvinistic swine will be overt enough to be chargeable, in most case they'll be clever enough to hide their abuses of power in subtle excuses. You will not be told you didn't get the promotion because you're a woman, no, it will be that they need someone to travel extensively in the position. You won't be told you won't get the team leader because you might drop a bambino, it would be something else. Same bigotry, just better hide. It is there, don't think its not.

 

Now, that is not your question. You seem to be making your fire and shadows more on the musing that women can do men things, but men can't seem to be accepted doing women's things. Hopefully that is the deer we're tracking, so let us see where it goes. There is some truth in this observation, even is the 21st century men are considered suspect if they're passions and interest seem too frilly. You can have drinks with four female coworkers, but heaven forbid if you order one of those frilly little lithe' drinks with sugar and fruit and umbrella. (I drink my bourbon strait).

 

It does become a little more acceptable if you are married, as doing needlepoint becomes more acceptable if you are doing it with you sweet beloved one. Don't know if that is a workable situation for you, as getting married just so you can admit you watch soap operas seems a tad extreme. I do know most of the plot of Young and Restless, BTW. I have no idea why Adam saved that worthless sob of a father as Victor, I mean did Victor ever visit him in Kansas? Really, so why wouldn't a son want.,., I digress.

 

I'm not sure of your age, but I am thinking you're youngish, not out of college most likely. I'm guessing high school senior/college freshman. In those years, and I haven't seen that this has changed that much, men seem to be threatened by effeminate behavior. I wish I understood that, but you can be gay and not have the same stress as an effeminate heterosexual. It may be like when you try to raise baby chicks with a batch of baby turkeys (poults). The chicks look almost like poults, they'll live together for the first few weeks, but at some time the poults and their mother hens decide there is something wrong with the chicks. One morning you'll go out and they've ganged up upon their "sibling" chick and pecked it to death and are eating the carcass. Something about the fact we don't like the different. Not saying it is right, just saying that is the tendancy of people and poults.

 

Now as far as hitting girls, I have a rather simple explanation of that. Now I am from a matrilineal and a matril-empowered culture. Women can do any thing they wish. I served with many of them in the service, and they are tough strong and capable. That being said, your average man that hits your average woman is going to do some real damage. On average, a man hitting a woman is going to hurt her far worse than a woman hitting a man. That is a sad lesson I learned in my life. With my beloved, if she is mad enough to slap me than I should be "man" enough to take the pain. She can slap hard, but it will not leave a lasting injury. She is the kindest sweetest daughter of the Creator ever, but when her pain and anger escape from the time before I knew her, than it is best for me to take a slap. The converse can not be said, if I slap her it will hurt her. It is not "fair" but it is the truth.

[funkyvixen]

Coltom you bring up some good points. It may not seem fair but yes men hit harder then women. Sadly I have seen some sad conclusion from younger males that is it ok to hit a women because women can hit them. Even sadder is the idea that she deserved it. Very disturbing. As said in the earlier post, people shouldn't be hitting each other in general.

Also, I had not thought about it but it is more accepting when a guy is married or in a long-term relationship. I have know several straight guys that loved project runway. I was surprised back then (2007) to hear they loved it so much but now i wouldn't give it a second though. Interesting observation.

One terms that keeps coming to mind is metrosexual. I guess that lifestyle has faded a bit but I think things have been changing weather people know it or not. We see more men that show their feelings, stay at home with the kids, etc. Small changes but changes none the less.

[kris10ly]

We're totally agreed that gender stereotypes are ridiculous and that men and women should be able to take up whichever jobs or hobbies they're interested in - but I don't think there's nearly so much openness in society to women who do traditionally male-gendered things as you're assuming and labeling unfair.

 

Yes, young girls can play sports now, and it's okay for women to have jobs - but women in management roles are still a huge minority (and I can attest firsthand to the kinds of invasive, insulting questions women are subjected to in the workplace when applying for management positions - "so how long until you get married and start having babies? do you cry when you're under stress?" etc), and it's still very much assumed that if a woman is doing a traditionally male-gendered thing (reading comic books, watching ESPN, etc) she's only doing it a: to impress men or b: because a man introduced her to the hobby.

 

I read a lot of comic books, so I also read a lot of comic book/nerd websites - just wait until any female celebrity attests to a love of comics in an interview and watch everyone log in on those boards to pick her apart and call her a liar. I've even seen Natalie Portman called a ~fake nerd~ before (over an anti-war PSA she did with a Star Wars theme), and she was IN Star Wars.

 

Back to your question regarding men specifically, though, I agree with Anime that ultimately it comes down to the fact that anything gendered as feminine is considered bad/weak; so a woman doing typically male-gendered things is still a woman, but she might get a few bonus points for trying to do "better," but a man doing female-gendered things is a traitor to his sex.

[coltom]

 

We're totally agreed that gender stereotypes are ridiculous and that men and women should be able to take up whichever jobs or hobbies they're interested in - but I don't think there's nearly so much openness in society to women who do traditionally male-gendered things as you're assuming and labeling unfair.

Yes, young girls can play sports now, and it's okay for women to have jobs - but women in management roles are still a huge minority (and I can attest firsthand to the kinds of invasive, insulting questions women are subjected to in the workplace when applying for management positions - "so how long until you get married and start having babies? do you cry when you're under stress?" etc), and it's still very much assumed that if a woman is doing a traditionally male-gendered thing (reading comic books, watching ESPN, etc) she's only doing it a: to impress men or b: because a man introduced her to the hobby.

I read a lot of comic books, so I also read a lot of comic book/nerd websites - just wait until any female celebrity attests to a love of comics in an interview and watch everyone log in on those boards to pick her apart and call her a liar. I've even seen Natalie Portman called a ~fake nerd~ before (over an anti-war PSA she did with a Star Wars theme), and she was IN Star Wars.

Back to your question regarding men specifically, though, I agree with Anime that ultimately it comes down to the fact that anything gendered as feminine is considered bad/weak; so a woman doing typically male-gendered things is still a woman, but she might get a few bonus points for trying to do "better," but a man doing female-gendered things is a traitor to his sex.

 

 

There is a very interesting aspect of female managers/Commanding officers (Actually I never had a female superior(edit, as in commanding officer, military only_), but I digress). To make it in a man's world they almost always over compensate/have to play it to the extreme. Women managers are often the most by the book/b busters in the biz. Any sign of female compassion is viewed as weakness, a man with compassion is often viewed as magnanimous. Life is hard.

 

That is strange about Star Wars. My beloved was a huge Star Trek fan when we first were thrown together, as was I. I've always notice that female Trekites always formed a major core of the original fandom. I digress. I have taxes to finish, so I am procrastination. I also have to pay over 1k in U.S. so I'm in such a hurry to finish up.

 

 

 

Second message

 

 

 

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Nor did I mean to imply that it is alright for women to be slapping their man around. In my case, the damage that was done to her before she found me, it sometimes still comes to the surface. If a woman would use the same words about a man I would do all in my power and skill to get her away, as when men hit women I have rarely seen it work out. I will not say never, as many of my soldier brothers come back really damaged from these wars. Time and light can sometimes return them. I digress.

 

My beloved one is fairly strong, she has been trained to the best of my skill in hand to hand and self defense. She likely could hurt me if that were her mind. Sometimes the darkness that festers inside her just wants me to hurt as much as she hurts, as I am a controlled and reserved soul. You could say it isn't fair, but it is not fair what she had to go through as a child, curse upon the worm ridden corpse that did this to her.

 

I am a tear drinker, it is my job to be there to take the pain from a troubled spirit, even one that I will never see completely healed.

 

Actually, a good tear drinker is supposed to neither be male or female. We are supposed to be balanced between the two, some secrets of the women's clan are known to a tear drinker.

 

 

P.S. Just as a humour aside, my little brother (half) is an expert on Rosewood pottery. When he is negotiating the price of a pot you'd swear that he was one of those initials mentioned above. Yet, in other aspects of his life he is a pretty standard male stereotype, Two sons, fat wife, played college baseball. I suspect he just likes pottery.

 

Coltom you bring up some good points. It may not seem fair but yes men hit harder then women. Sadly I have seen some sad conclusion from younger males that is it ok to hit a women because women can hit them. Even sadder is the idea that she deserved it. Very disturbing. As said in the earlier post, people shouldn't be hitting each other in general.

[Piticent]

You guys do brig up some interesting points.

 

 

Yes, young girls can play sports now, and it's okay for women to have jobs - but women in management roles are still a huge minority (and I can attest firsthand to the kinds of invasive, insulting questions women are subjected to in the workplace when applying for management positions - "so how long until you get married and start having babies? do you cry when you're under stress?" etc), and it's still very much assumed that if a woman is doing a traditionally male-gendered thing (reading comic books, watching ESPN, etc) she's only doing it a: to impress men or b: because a man introduced her to the hobby.

 

Interesting that you bring this up. I do agree that this exists. I regularly read this website, and I find i ridiculous the things that men say to women working. But I suppose it is also important to keep in mind that while interaction with customers is difficult, it sometimes is easier for women to get things men can't. Colleges have a lot of people applying nowadays and they have to narrow their choices down somehow. Minority status is an easy way to do this. When they accept minorities, they are seen as accepting, benevolent organizations, and sometimes even get extra money for it. I'm not saying people who are minorities aren't as fit for college, but I am saying that they don't have to put in as much extra effort to get in because if its between a black female and a white male, the college is probobly going to pick the black female because she is a minority. For this reason, it is frustrating.

 

Coltom you bring up some good points. It may not seem fair but yes men hit harder then women. Sadly I have seen some sad conclusion from younger males that is it ok to hit a women because women can hit them. Even sadder is the idea that she deserved it. Very disturbing. As said in the earlier post, people shouldn't be hitting each other in general.

Also, I had not thought about it but it is more accepting when a guy is married or in a long-term relationship. I have know several straight guys that loved project runway. I was surprised back then (2007) to hear they loved it so much but now i wouldn't give it a second though. Interesting observation.

One terms that keeps coming to mind is metrosexual. I guess that lifestyle has faded a bit but I think things have been changing weather people know it or not. We see more men that show their feelings, stay at home with the kids, etc. Small changes but changes none the less.

 

Ah, marriage. I forgot about changes in opinion due to marriage. I do agree, when doing something feminine WITH a girl, it isn't seen as bad as usual. And about the first paragraph, I agree; it's sick to see some of the cruel chauvinistic "jokes" people come up with. It kind of makes me ashamed to be part of the gender who thought them up. Metrosexuality is also a good point. I had never actually heard of the term before, but I have heard of the behaviors. I think there's nothing wrong with it. Sometimes, the woman just can't afford to stay home, and that's okay.

 

 

 

I realize you specified you were talking about boys and girls specifically, but I think this topic easily reaches beyond that. When you talk about anatomy and societal expectations with a specification of people choosing to mix things up, you start talking about gender fluidity. Gender is viewed more as a spectrum nowadays, not A and B. From my view, it seems that society is moving towards more fluid gender roles as a whole, though males are having a more difficult time of this because of the exact reason Anime said: the perception of strong and weak. Ideally, unfair expectations for gender roles wouldn't even exist; people could simply act in what way is most comfortable for them. Realistically, I'm hoping that it'll become less of a stigma for people to move throughout the gender spectrum in general.

 

I do suppose that your idea of a spectrum is a good one. Biology shouldn't be a factor in where one is on the spectrum, unless a person wants it to be. Of course, I guess this analogy has turned into a river. Excuse my crude drawing skills.

 

 

 

I put a whirlpool around gays/lesbians because society is pretty split, and they're legally not allowed to get married yet, so I'd say its a downhill battle, but society still looks up upon them.

 

 

It all links back to one very simple thing that has dominated our culture for far, far too long:

 

Being female is seen as "weak" while being male is seen as "strong".

 

As such, it becomes okay for a woman to do things seen as "for men" because she's "moving up" and "acting stronger", while a man doing things that are "for women" is "moving down" and "being weak". And it's a horrible double standard, and total bull crap, but that's the mindset behind that particular reaction.

 

Really, it shouldn't matter what anyone likes or wants to do and no one should be ostracized for doing anything they enjoy doing (provided they're not harming someone else, obvs)...

 

Good point, I didn't think of evolution and natural selection. Back in the days of the nomads, these stereotypes were actually true...I'm glad people agree with me, though :)

 

I'm not sure what the backbone is of your question, although I certainly feel the flesh that you have wrapped it.

 

I'd only like to make one point, as I am an ancient and part of the class of people that are likely to have hiring, promotion and similar power over most of your generation. Don't for one ice sliding minute think that discrimination is mainly a thing of the past. It might not be as transparent as it was in my youth, but it is there in many and subtle ways. If you are lucky the chauvinistic swine will be overt enough to be chargeable, in most case they'll be clever enough to hide their abuses of power in subtle excuses. You will not be told you didn't get the promotion because you're a woman, no, it will be that they need someone to travel extensively in the position. You won't be told you won't get the team leader because you might drop a bambino, it would be something else. Same bigotry, just better hide. It is there, don't think its not.

 

Now, that is not your question. You seem to be making your fire and shadows more on the musing that women can do men things, but men can't seem to be accepted doing women's things. Hopefully that is the deer we're tracking, so let us see where it goes. There is some truth in this observation, even is the 21st century men are considered suspect if they're passions and interest seem too frilly. You can have drinks with four female coworkers, but heaven forbid if you order one of those frilly little lithe' drinks with sugar and fruit and umbrella. (I drink my bourbon strait).

 

I'm not sure of your age, but I am thinking you're youngish, not out of college most likely. I'm guessing high school senior/college freshman. In those years, and I haven't seen that this has changed that much, men seem to be threatened by effeminate behavior. I wish I understood that, but you can be gay and not have the same stress as an effeminate heterosexual. It may be like when you try to raise baby chicks with a batch of baby turkeys (poults). The chicks look almost like poults, they'll live together for the first few weeks, but at some time the poults and their mother hens decide there is something wrong with the chicks. One morning you'll go out and they've ganged up upon their "sibling" chick and pecked it to death and are eating the carcass. Something about the fact we don't like the different. Not saying it is right, just saying that is the tendancy of people and poults.

 

Now as far as hitting girls, I have a rather simple explanation of that. Now I am from a matrilineal and a matril-empowered culture. Women can do any thing they wish. I served with many of them in the service, and they are tough strong and capable. That being said, your average man that hits your average woman is going to do some real damage. On average, a man hitting a woman is going to hurt her far worse than a woman hitting a man. That is a sad lesson I learned in my life. With my beloved, if she is mad enough to slap me than I should be "man" enough to take the pain. She can slap hard, but it will not leave a lasting injury. She is the kindest sweetest daughter of the Creator ever, but when her pain and anger escape from the time before I knew her, than it is best for me to take a slap. The converse can not be said, if I slap her it will hurt her. It is not "fair" but it is the truth.

 

That sounded pretty scholarly :graduated::thumbsup: Anywho, backwards up, I do agree. Men, due to their Y chromosome among other things, are stronger than women, but it is still not a good enough point to convince me that it is acceptable for women to hit men because the fact of the matter is that slapping is slapping, no matter what gender you belong to. Women and men both have pain receptors and a nervous system, so therefore, we both feel pain. It is not very easy to "man up," in my opinion, just because I am a male. I've cried due to pain before, and I don't think lowly of myself just because I'm human.

 

The idea of being different always scares people. There have been TV shows and movies with this idea, and it is certainly true. Humans generally dislike the different, the unknown. LGBT is just too new; not enough humans understand it enough to accept it, and that's where society is going wrong. When we see something we don't know, generally speaking, our evolutionary instincts kick in and our initial thought is simple: destroy it before it destroys you. I don't understand why it still happens, though. :/

 

Eh, humans. Same wickedness, more intelligent about it. The problem is, however, is that it isn't that hard to figure it out. It makes somebody feel better for a little bit, but then once you think and realize the meaning hiding behind it, it hurts even more.

 

Also, the backbone, if you mean thesis, is this: Why can girls act like boys, yet not vice versa?

 

 

Thank you everybody for responding! I like seeing other peoples opinions :)

[coltom]

Ah, are we getting LGBT (and some other letters I am not keeping up with). I didn't think that was the issue, but behavior that does not fit the norm?

Really, it is sort of strange because every conflict I've ever been involved with First Citizen issues, some one will say in anger to the gist of "Why can't you just act normal and be like us". Why do you want us to be like you? I suspect insecurity about one's own beliefs causes the desire to be convinced that everyone must also act like them. Aitee, Peacemaker said we may start upon a path, but sometimes the path finds our feet.

 

G's often have a hard path in my culture. Since the world is divided unto the realm of the women and the realm of men, those that do not fit well into the divide have a hard path. Yet, it's better than deciding to carry to term a child rather than to take chemo to save your life. Aiyee, or dying early of heart failure. Still, not impossible to fit as best as can be done, my daughter's not-sisters have two mothers.

[kris10ly]

Colleges have a lot of people applying nowadays and they have to narrow their choices down somehow. Minority status is an easy way to do this. When they accept minorities, they are seen as accepting, benevolent organizations, and sometimes even get extra money for it. I'm not saying people who are minorities aren't as fit for college, but I am saying that they don't have to put in as much extra effort to get in because if its between a black female and a white male, the college is probobly going to pick the black female because she is a minority.

Actually, this is a commonly-believed myth, but it just isn't true. It's been proven many times that college admissions requirements, at least for undergrad, are much more strenuous for female applicants than male - that is, male college applicants have a much higher acceptance rate than female.

 

The easy possible explanation for this is that more women pursue degrees than their male peers (because positions offering salary/prestige for women have higher degree requirements than those equivalent positions for men), so schools are automatically able to be more selective amongst female applicants than amongst the male. After all, colleges try to keep their student populations at roughly 50/50 (generally slightly slanted towards more female students, because of the aforementioned higher application rate), so applicants are really competing against other members of their gender, not against all other applicants.

 

Anecdata isn't scientific but I've seen this firsthand - I was in my university's 24-person honors program (it was a small Jesuit school with a basketball team I'm currently very mad at), and upperclassmen in the program helped to interview and select members of each freshman honors class. It was pretty hilarious how relatively unqualified many of the male students wound up being - for every National Merit Scholar, local charity-founding, AP Silver Scholar female student there'd be two guys who made Eagle Scout and managed to keep a 3.5 in high school.

[coltom]

You guys do brig up some interesting points.

 

 

 

Interesting that you bring this up. I do agree that this exists. I regularly read this website, and I find i ridiculous the things that men say to women working. But I suppose it is also important to keep in mind that while interaction with customers is difficult, it sometimes is easier for women to get things men can't. Colleges have a lot of people applying nowadays and they have to narrow their choices down somehow. Minority status is an easy way to do this. When they accept minorities, they are seen as accepting, benevolent organizations, and sometimes even get extra money for it. I'm not saying people who are minorities aren't as fit for college, but I am saying that they don't have to put in as much extra effort to get in because if its between a black female and a white male, the college is probobly going to pick the black female because she is a minority. For this reason, it is frustrating.

 

 

Ah, marriage. I forgot about changes in opinion due to marriage. I do agree, when doing something feminine WITH a girl, it isn't seen as bad as usual. And about the first paragraph, I agree; it's sick to see some of the cruel chauvinistic "jokes" people come up with. It kind of makes me ashamed to be part of the gender who thought them up. Metrosexuality is also a good point. I had never actually heard of the term before, but I have heard of the behaviors. I think there's nothing wrong with it. Sometimes, the woman just can't afford to stay home, and that's okay.

 

 

 

 

I do suppose that your idea of a spectrum is a good one. Biology shouldn't be a factor in where one is on the spectrum, unless a person wants it to be. Of course, I guess this analogy has turned into a river. Excuse my crude drawing skills.

 

 

 

I put a whirlpool around gays/lesbians because society is pretty split, and they're legally not allowed to get married yet, so I'd say its a downhill battle, but society still looks up upon them.

 

 

 

Good point, I didn't think of evolution and natural selection. Back in the days of the nomads, these stereotypes were actually true...I'm glad people agree with me, though :)

 

 

That sounded pretty scholarly :graduated: :thumbsup: Anywho, backwards up, I do agree. Men, due to their Y chromosome among other things, are stronger than women, but it is still not a good enough point to convince me that it is acceptable for women to hit men because the fact of the matter is that slapping is slapping, no matter what gender you belong to. Women and men both have pain receptors and a nervous system, so therefore, we both feel pain. It is not very easy to "man up," in my opinion, just because I am a male. I've cried due to pain before, and I don't think lowly of myself just because I'm human.

 

The idea of being different always scares people. There have been TV shows and movies with this idea, and it is certainly true. Humans generally dislike the different, the unknown. LGBT is just too new; not enough humans understand it enough to accept it, and that's where society is going wrong. When we see something we don't know, generally speaking, our evolutionary instincts kick in and our initial thought is simple: destroy it before it destroys you. I don't understand why it still happens, though. :/

 

Eh, humans. Same wickedness, more intelligent about it. The problem is, however, is that it isn't that hard to figure it out. It makes somebody feel better for a little bit, but then once you think and realize the meaning hiding behind it, it hurts even more.

 

Also, the backbone, if you mean thesis, is this: Why can girls act like boys, yet not vice versa?

 

 

Thank you everybody for responding! I like seeing other peoples opinions :)

I think you I have not made one key point clear enough. The concern about men not hitting women is not moral, not ethical. In that sense, violence against one's beloved is generally wrong. No, my point is that the damage that men do is so much greater, so much so more severe that it can never be done. I slapped a person a cared about once, in my mind it was a slap, just a slap. In reality, it did real damage. I had every right to do what I did, but I regret that action to this day. Never again.

 

Conversely, among my kin and clan we have sparred with long sticks, or the stylized war clubs used in such battles. I have broken bones, made scars. It is no big thing, we do such things for fun. Yet, one open handed slap, one that in my mind I pulled my strength and struck only to calm. For that action, I answer in my darkling dreams, I will answer in the next world.

[Bubbleline]

*throws up hands* There are so many things wrong with your argument I don't even know where to begin picking it apart. I've seen many people, mostly white cis het men, complain about stuff like this. Crying about how women no longer need feminism because they're the ones doing the oppressing and whining about how the poor white man is becoming the new oppressed minority. That's not how it works. The things you are complaining about with double standards is an indirect result of the patriarchy. As Anime (and a few others said), the double standard exists because men view femininity as weakness, it is 'less than' masculinity, it is inferior. So a man 'sinking down' to the level of femininity is worthy of ridicule because he is suddenly 'less than' a man. With a single stroke of femininity, masculinity crumbles in the eye of society. I find it ironic. But whatever. I'm not here for your cries of unfairness, because it is usually that people like you would like to 'fix' the patriarchy so that you no longer have any ill effects from it, while still keeping it in place to hold others down.

 

"Of course, I could create a whole other topic about how minorities have switched, and while minorities like blacks have fought for equal rights, they got a bit more, and now white males are actually forced into being minorities, but I'll save that for later..."

I think you should keep that post to yourself before I rain down my feminist fury on you. Men, especially white men, are not minorities. Y'all don't even know what true oppression is but you're so quick to claim it. Get outta here with that nonsense.

[coltom]

Bubbeline of the secret supreme, to whom is your message directed? Coming from the most gender balanced society on this planet I would take offense if directed towards moi?

 

Oh sure those dang Cherokee (Tsunangani) claim the title, but don't you believe them one minute. Oh the scandal, I've heard they actually allow men to own property! Well I never.

[kris10ly]

*throws up hands* There are so many things wrong with your argument I don't even know where to begin picking it apart. I've seen many people, mostly white cis het men, complain about stuff like this. Crying about how women no longer need feminism because they're the ones doing the oppressing and whining about how the poor white man is becoming the new oppressed minority. That's not how it works. The things you are complaining about with double standards is an indirect result of the patriarchy. As Anime (and a few others said), the double standard exists because men view femininity as weakness, it is 'less than' masculinity, it is inferior. So a man 'sinking down' to the level of femininity is worthy of ridicule because he is suddenly 'less than' a man. With a single stroke of femininity, masculinity crumbles in the eye of society. I find it ironic. But whatever. I'm not here for your cries of unfairness, because it is usually that people like you would like to 'fix' the patriarchy so that you no longer have any ill effects from it, while still keeping it in place to hold others down.

 

"Of course, I could create a whole other topic about how minorities have switched, and while minorities like blacks have fought for equal rights, they got a bit more, and now white males are actually forced into being minorities, but I'll save that for later..."

I think you should keep that post to yourself before I rain down my feminist fury on you. Men, especially white men, are not minorities. Y'all don't even know what true oppression is but you're so quick to claim it. Get outta here with that nonsense.

I wish I could like a post more than once.

[Bubbleline]

Nah, coltom. The post was mostly directed toward the OP.

[Kaana]

(Apologies for any incoherence, it's pretty late here)

 

Essentially, everything I could say has been said by Anime, re:this thread's topic as stated by the OP. I also agree with everything said by bubbleline.

 

Feminism is still needed by society and we have a long way to go before we reach actual equality. White males are still the most privileged group in society and most everything they aren't "allowed" to do is because it's seen as associated with non-male or non-white culture and ideology - i.e. the man is wrong because he is choosing to adopt an inferior behaviour/attitude/whatever. This is of course nonsense but it is subtly reinforced every day, sometimes by things we don't realise are reinforcing these ideas.

[eloralestrange]

I was just thinking about this today. I've always thought of myself as a very gender-neutral person in terms of my interests. 

Sure, I like shopping, my little pony (throughout the ages... not just the current seasons) and fashion, but I also like gaming, wearing pants and other stuff. In fact, if you don't cross-gender your interests and you're a girl, you will be labelled as a girly-girl. That is a fact. If you wear dresses all the time, you cannot escape the label. If a guy wears pants all the time, that's just normal. 

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