Eagle Scouts returning badges

[Secre]

This is probably old news to many of you who actually live in the States but being in the UK this is something that has only piqued my interest today.

 

The Boy Scouts of America re-inforced their decision to not allow openly homosexual boys or leaders into the scouts which seems to have caused chaos with Scouts returning their Eagle Scouts Awards that they worked for years for and have been described as the proudest moments of their lives with letters to say that they cannot be a part of this anymore.

 

I found some of their letters completely and utterly heart wrenching with the medals attached and see them as having an amazing amount of guts to do this and stand for what they believe in, but was wondering what anyone else thought.

 

For anyone not in the know:

http://eaglebadges.tumblr.com/ is a tumbler account not attached to myself with pictures of the letters and medals.

http://boingboing.net/2012/07/25/more-men-join-the-ranks-of-for.html is a piece written by the wife of a husband who did exactly this.

http://socyberty.com/issues/eagle-scouts-becoming-former-eagle-scouts-over-blatant-discrimination/

 

Honestly some of the letters were complete tear jerkers as it was so clear how proud they had once been of the award.

 

But yeah, I'd be interested in others views on this or whether I'm just a sentimental idiot.

[Rebecca~]

What jerkfaces. >:|

So many of the other national organisations for children in the US are so accepting (Girl Scouts, I'm looking at you, you awesome ladies), that when I hear about the Boy Scouts I'm kind of like "Bzuh?!" :(

I'm so proud of all of these people, queer and straight. I hope, I really hope, that when floods of these letters start hitting their headquarters that they see how damaging their bigotry is.

[Secre]

I'm so proud of all of these people, queer and straight. I hope, I really hope, that when floods of these letters start hitting their headquarters that they see how damaging their bigotry is.

 

That was at least part of my thinking - not being in the Scouts or the US I had never heard of the Eagle award until now but it is so very clear that it is one heck of a huge thing which they actually put on their resumes and mention in interviews; it can even get you a higher starting position in the military. For them to be sending them back is a huge and monumental gesture which as I said really caught my attention.

[Rebecca~]

That was at least part of my thinking - not being in the Scouts or the US I had never heard of the Eagle award until now but it is so very clear that it is one heck of a huge thing which they actually put on their resumes and mention in interviews; it can even get you a higher starting position in the military. For them to be sending them back is a huge and monumental gesture which as I said really caught my attention.

Yeah. Well, when you think about it, getting that award means having worked in Boy Scouts for probably 12 or so years, jumped through tonnes of hoops to get various badges and stuff. A friend I used got what I imagine is about the equivalent in the Girl Guides of Canada- she had joined GG when she was 5, I think, and got the Canada Cord at 17-- and she worked her butt off getting it. It is a huge achievement, so it definitely means a lot to be saying that having that medal shames you.

So many high fives to all of these people.

[Welcome Back Apathy]

I have mixed feelings about the Boy Scouts doing this, and about the returning badges.

 

Here's the thing: the Boy Scouts make no attempt to hide the fact that they are an organization that encourages religion in the scouts. They have been since the beginning. And you know what, even though I disagree with it, I think that they should have the right to say that gay people aren't allowed in it, based on freedom of religion, etc. Then gay people--and supporters of gay people who find this disgusting--can go elsewhere.

 

At the same time, I don't believe that any huge organization should make overarching rules like that. Leave the decision up to the individual troops. Man, I make it sound like states' rights vs. federal government, don't I? But different people worship God different ways, and the troops are all different from each other. If one troop believes they should be inclusive, I think they should be. Unfortunately, the heads of the Boy Scouts believe that they should make the decision for EVERYONE.

 

*******************************

 

As for the return of the Scout badges...

 

It's a great gesture, and a great show of support. But I have to wonder...

 

This is in NO WAY a new policy. They have been against gay people...I'm sure from the beginning. So I have to wonder...why are they just now doing it? Nothing new in discrimination happened. When you got your badge, they were against gay people. Did you just not think about it? Or did you just care more about receiving your badge at the time, and now that you have grown up away from the Eagle Scouts, you feel you can speak up?

[Secre]

Here's the thing: the Boy Scouts make no attempt to hide the fact that they are an organization that encourages religion in the scouts. They have been since the beginning. And you know what, even though I disagree with it, I think that they should have the right to say that gay people aren't allowed in it, based on freedom of religion, etc. Then gay people--and supporters of gay people who find this disgusting--can go elsewhere.

 

Although they are a religious organisation the religious objections to homosexuality are being eroded away both by a better understanding of the Bible and by a message of love and tolerance. You can't in my eyes claim to believe in the New Testament which Jesus preaches where he saves the adulterous wife and constantly shows kindness and compassion if at the same time you are willing to victimise and discriminate against an entire set of people for the way they were born. The other issue is that there aren't many other organisations in which to go; the Scouts are the largest and the most easy to locate so that doesn't leave many other options.

 

This is in NO WAY a new policy. They have been against gay people...I'm sure from the beginning. So I have to wonder...why are they just now doing it? Nothing new in discrimination happened. When you got your badge, they were against gay people. Did you just not think about it? Or did you just care more about receiving your badge at the time, and now that you have grown up away from the Eagle Scouts, you feel you can speak up?

 

I think it's been in the pipeline that they've been discussing it for a couple of years so a lot of people have kept quiet until the final decision - kind of a 'You have just blown your big chance to change things'. But also I think a lot of the time these sorts of issues don't occur to teenagers. Whereas ten years after receiving your badge you are much more mature and can see the hatred that is right in front of you. If that makes sense?

[LizyMarie]

Too many emotions and words are going through my mind that I cannot express what I want to say right now on this website.

 

There are too many problems with Americans and their Homophobia. I don't understand why people fear it, and why they find it nessasary to hurt others for being a little different.

 

Different strokes.

 

And as someone who went through girlscouts and having many friends that were in the Eagle scouts... I'm pretty upset right now. Very VERY irked. Some of my sailor language is coming out.

But of course, we are Americans. We hate everyone and everything that is different. But the Ghetto culture? That's accepted. *INSERT SAILOR LANGUAGE HERE*!!!!!!

 

*rampage*

 

And of course this isn't a new issue. It just irks me. :/ Stupid Americans.

[lilshadowdweller]

Here's the thing: the Boy Scouts make no attempt to hide the fact that they are an organization that encourages religion in the scouts. They have been since the beginning. And you know what, even though I disagree with it, I think that they should have the right to say that gay people aren't allowed in it, based on freedom of religion, etc. Then gay people--and supporters of gay people who find this disgusting--can go elsewhere.

 

Honestly, if you read the story which I had, about a Uncle who was SO excited to lead a troop with his young nephew - only to tearfully realize it'll never happen because his young nephew idenitifies himself as being homosexual; well, it was heart breaking. His Uncle agrees however that he must protect his nephew from discrimination which he doesn't deserve.

 

Do you feel the same way regarding the Klu Klux Klan, too, or do you reserve special judgement merely for religious groups? All white groups are normally shunned (and for good reason); how is this sort of discrimination (in the name of God), more acceptable?

 

Let's not forget, the Boy Scouts is a HUGE, culturally relevant group - to say it like; "OH, they can go elsewhere", well, why should they have to?

[Bubbleline]

This is horrible and very very sad. I remember being a girl scout for a few years when I was young and it was wonderful. Singing songs that I'd want to hurry to sing to my father (my mother was involved in the girl scouts with me so she already knew the songs) selling cookies of course, making tons of crafts like lanyards and linked chains, and marching around our area speaking against smoking and drugs. Everyone was so accepting that I can't even remember getting bullied in any way for any reason while I was with them which is why it shocks and appalls me that the male equivalent of that is outwardly against such a large demographic of people. Really? Hatred and fear and a lack of compassion and understanding towards homosexuals is what we want to teach our kids? Because that's the message I'm getting from this. What is wrong with these people?

 

Here's the thing: the Boy Scouts make no attempt to hide the fact that they are an organization that encourages religion in the scouts. They have been since the beginning. And you know what, even though I disagree with it, I think that they should have the right to say that gay people aren't allowed in it, based on freedom of religion, etc. Then gay people--and supporters of gay people who find this disgusting--can go elsewhere.

 

As someone else said, why should they have to find somewhere else to go? Yes, the Boy Scouts have always tried to incorporate religion, however, I don't think they should be forcing their particular religious views on everyone. There are Christians out there that believe that no matter what you are or what you do, you cannot fall out of God's grace, which would include homosexuals. And besides that, if they're shunning homosexuals because they go against their 'religious views', what's to stop them from next saying that people of other religions can't join unless they convert? Boy Scouts is a HUGE organization that has been around for years, they should be ashamed of themselves for doing this and ostracizing so many people. And as for the argument of why the people are just now deciding to give back their badges, I think that the intolerance has never been this glaringly obvious before. I can't say for sure, but I think this is just the slap of reality that many people got that told them that the Boy Scouts were positively intolerant, instead of just having doubts from before.

[Welcome Back Apathy]

Do you feel the same way regarding the Klu Klux Klan, too, or do you reserve special judgement merely for religious groups? All white groups are normally shunned (and for good reason); how is this sort of discrimination (in the name of God), more acceptable?

 

Let's not forget, the Boy Scouts is a HUGE, culturally relevant group - to say it like; "OH, they can go elsewhere", well, why should they have to?

 

The fact that I find someone's beliefs disgusting doesn't mean I think they should have their right to that belief taken away. But here's the fun part: making that belief of theirs VERY public. The negative publicity is the great part. As soon as it is widely known that they are hateful, interest drops. The organization goes down. Current and past scouts beg the leaders to change their minds. Eventually, CHANGE WILL HAPPEN.

 

Yes, I believe the Ku Klux Klan has the right to believe white people are better. And they have the right to a whites-only club, and a whites-only church as recently came out in the news. But we publicize that stuff. And that's when it gets fuuuuun.

 

I will specify one thing, though: I only think that you have the right to decide who joins your little club. When it comes to, say, whom businesses treat...then it's definitely not okay. You specifically join a club, and go to meetings, etc. etc. But you don't join a grocery store.

 

Let's not forget, the Boy Scouts is a HUGE, culturally relevant group - to say it like; "OH, they can go elsewhere", well, why should they have to?

 

Their bigotry is making them less culturally relevant. But I agree--boys shouldn't *have* to go elsewhere. So we need to change the Boy Scouts' minds. I'm just saying, we shouldn't enact a law forcing people to do that.

 

My idea: Make a new organization that's more similar to the Girl Scouts, but for boys. I'm sure the Girl Scouts Association (notice that the abbreviation is GSA...) would love to work on this. Do it THROUGH THE GIRL SCOUTS, and you'll get that cultural relevance.

[Secre]

As someone else said, why should they have to find somewhere else to go? Yes, the Boy Scouts have always tried to incorporate religion, however, I don't think they should be forcing their particular religious views on everyone. There are Christians out there that believe that no matter what you are or what you do, you cannot fall out of God's grace, which would include homosexuals. And besides that, if they're shunning homosexuals because they go against their 'religious views', what's to stop them from next saying that people of other religions can't join unless they convert? Boy Scouts is a HUGE organization that has been around for years, they should be ashamed of themselves for doing this and ostracizing so many people. And as for the argument of why the people are just now deciding to give back their badges, I think that the intolerance has never been this glaringly obvious before. I can't say for sure, but I think this is just the slap of reality that many people got that told them that the Boy Scouts were positively intolerant, instead of just having doubts from before.

 

It's also the fact that the Christian belief system for example has far more directly against divorce in the Bible than against homosexuality - in fact homosexuality has a possible 7 references I think it is and most of them can actually be disproved by reading the original Greek. For example Leviticus is far more likely a reference to prostitution than homosexuality, and Sodom is about rape pure and simple - there's no homosexuality in it, but these are the references which these Christians are using to exclude often very vulnerable young boys who may simply be confused or misguided but also desperately need support no matter what they choose.

 

In terms of reasons why there are people returning badges now I've been re-reading the letters again and one of the largest things that comes up aside from the fact that they are truly ashamed of an organisation they once loved is that they are ashamed of themselves for not having spoken up sooner:

"I was friends with a few scouts that were keeping their sexuality a secret, but I publicly defended BSA’s right to make that choice - much to my shame. I had desperate hopes that the latest two-year evaluation would allow BSA to modernize, to focus its mission on growing leaders and exceptional young men of all orientations, to move beyond stances that come across as increasingly mean-spirited, exclusionary, and antiquated. "

 

"I should have written this letter years ago. I honestly hoped that the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) would come around and do the right thing for the boys of this country.After the announcement on July 7, 2012, it is clear that the organization is not ready for that."

 

"I should have written this letter years ago but I didn’t want to let go of one of my proudest achievements to-date. I attained the rank of Eagle in 1991, and I have been deeply proud of it ever since."

 

"I return my rank of Eagle today with no reservation. When I took the various oaths during my Eagle Court of Honor I sealed my words with my sacred honor, the same two words that close our Declaration of Independence. I feel as though it is a violation of my honor to continue to hold rank, especially with the clout it gives to my resume."

 

"In truth I should have returned my badge more than a decade ago when the Supreme Court ridiculously ruled that the BSA had the right to exclude people based on sexual orientation. I had thought, like many others, that efforts at reform from the inside would lead to a change in course."

 

I think the words of those men to me says enough; there is a deep sense of both shame and bitterness in many of the letters. I think that he discrimination was obvious before but nobody had directly re-inforced it; with the re-inforcement comes the refusal to be a part of it.

[cleomiele]

Here's the thing: the Boy Scouts make no attempt to hide the fact that they are an organization that encourages religion in the scouts. They have been since the beginning. And you know what, even though I disagree with it, I think that they should have the right to say that gay people aren't allowed in it, based on freedom of religion, etc. Then gay people--and supporters of gay people who find this disgusting--can go elsewhere.

 

Hate speech is not free speech. There is a difference in claiming you are a religious organization and practicing under those morals, which is fine, and publicly defaming and excluding people who do not fit your ideals, which is another thing entirely. If America wasn't primarily a Christian nation, or say if the Boy Scouts were operating from a Muslim or Jewish standpoint and discriminating on the basis of those faiths, there would be a bigger uproar about this, which is sad.

 

Becoming an Eagle scout takes dozens upon dozens of hours and some EXTREMELY hard work and planning. For those men to relinquish their hard-earned badges and status is certainly no small task; I am humbled and inspired by such a display of belief in doing what is right.

[Welcome Back Apathy]

Hate speech is not free speech. There is a difference in claiming you are a religious organization and practicing under those morals, which is fine, and publicly defaming and excluding people who do not fit your ideals, which is another thing entirely. If America wasn't primarily a Christian nation, or say if the Boy Scouts were operating from a Muslim or Jewish standpoint and discriminating on the basis of those faiths, there would be a bigger uproar about this, which is sad.

 

How is there not already a big uproar? I don't know; maybe it's a smaller deal in other states, but it's a huge deal where I am and where I come from. (Massachusetts and California, respectively.) The only people who AREN'T outraged at the Boy Scouts are the ones who are cheering them on.

 

There is no difference in claiming you are a religious organization and practicing those morals vs. excluding people who do not fit your ideals. Because if you are a religious organization, and your church requires certain "moral behavior" (ugh, I hate using those words when it comes to hetero vs. homosexuality) then those people are not obeying the "Word of God". Or whatever they consider that pile of vomit.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the Boy Scouts. No, I hate what they're doing, and I want them to change that policy. But I want THEM to change the policy--because they realize the error of their ways, not because the government pops in and tells them what to do. Forced policy (which is what some people are trying to go for here) only leads to resentment and hatred that will harm gay people as well.

 

THAT'S what I mean when I say they have a right to believe what they want. They have the right to shoot themselves in the foot by having policies that make people aware of what a negative organization they are.

 

And we have the right to disagree.

 

And we have the right to protest.

 

And we have the right to not buy...wait, Boy Scouts don't sell cookies. Hmm. ANOTHER point to the Girl Scouts.

 

And we have the right to keep our sons out of the Boy Scouts.

 

And we have the right to form our own groups with ideals WE want. "Must be open-minded."

[cleomiele]

How is there not already a big uproar? I don't know; maybe it's a smaller deal in other states, but it's a huge deal where I am and where I come from. (Massachusetts and California, respectively.) The only people who AREN'T outraged at the Boy Scouts are the ones who are cheering them on.

 

Are people actively talking about it and refusing to join/stay in Boy Scouts? If so, I wish I could say the same about where I am...here, the mindset is either, "YEAH, BEING GAY ISN'T CHRISTIAN, GO BOY SCOUTS," or, "Well that sucks for homosexual scouts, but it doesn't affect me, so ho-hum."

My mistake for assuming people felt mostly the same everywhere, but I do think that a good portion of Americans are still apathetic enough to not actually do/say anything about it.

 

Which is why the internet is great; we get to congregate and talk about things we care about with other people that care about it as well. Yaaay~

 

But back to the topic at hand! I do agree with you, Karina, about Boy Scouts needing to change their policies themselves. I sincerely hope the scouts that gave up their badges have made some sort of impact on someone important there...

[passiflora]

As a private organization, the boy scouts has every right to promote Christian ideals. However, the problem lies in that they often receive funds from public institutions (e.g. from schools, indirectly via access to government resources, etc.). If they're benefitting from tax dollars in any way shape or form, then they cannot discriminate based on orientation.

 

 

 

I agree with Karina though; it would be nice if they would willingly change their policies instead of being forced into it. I just wish someone would realize how silly it is to exclude gays even if they are Christian - otherwise why wouldn't they also ban members who, for example, have been through a divorce, or have tattoos? :rolleyes_anim:

 

 

I do hope those guys sending back their badges helps the organization change its mind.

[Puzzles]

This is probably old news to many of you who actually live in the States but being in the UK this is something that has only piqued my interest today.

 

The Boy Scouts of America re-inforced their decision to not allow openly homosexual boys or leaders into the scouts which seems to have caused chaos with Scouts returning their Eagle Scouts Awards that they worked for years for and have been described as the proudest moments of their lives with letters to say that they cannot be a part of this anymore.

 

I found some of their letters completely and utterly heart wrenching with the medals attached and see them as having an amazing amount of guts to do this and stand for what they believe in, but was wondering what anyone else thought.

 

For anyone not in the know:

http://eaglebadges.tumblr.com/ is a tumbler account not attached to myself with pictures of the letters and medals.

http://boingboing.ne...nks-of-for.html is a piece written by the wife of a husband who did exactly this.

http://socyberty.com...discrimination/

 

Honestly some of the letters were complete tear jerkers as it was so clear how proud they had once been of the award.

 

But yeah, I'd be interested in others views on this or whether I'm just a sentimental idiot.

 

 

I'd say you are. :rolleyes_anim:

 

 

This post has been edited by a member of staff (Spritzie) because of a violation of the forum rules.

Please keep your posts at 7 words or above. Also, this is a debate board, please be respectful of other members and only post if you plan to add to the debate of the original topic.

Please check your user inbox to see if you have been contacted regarding this incident, then review our rules.

[Azariah]

Here I go :D

 

I'm part of a scout family and I have been since I was able to join the Girl Scouts. I've achieved my gold award which is on par with the Eagle Scout Award, I worked towards it for 13 years and I agree that the Girl Scouts are very open minded. I've known plenty of homosexual females, pansexuals (being one myself), bisexuals, and etc who have been welcomed with open arms to the Girl Scouts. I did my own Silver Award project on Lawrence King and it was advertised as one of the most heart felt projects in my county.

 

My brother is part of Boy Scouts and although he is continuing, he has yet to achieve his Eagle, he would accept a boy if he was openly gay. My brother will earn his Eagle just like all of his friends will but they all do say they wouldn't mind it. Of course, I know, it is a religious group but they honestly should revise their rules to the current time. There are MANY, MANY men that I know with their Eagles who are also beginning to slowly send them back.

 

I have had over ten boy scout friends who have achieved their Eagles and over half of them have relinquished them to the Councils. A few have cried that they have lost their medals but they felt it was for the better good to give them back.

 

As well as, two, of the ten boys who achieved their medals were openly gay to their friends but not the council. They received their Eagles and then told everyone else, then they returned the medals to spite the council.

 

I don't agree with the fact that they do take away the possibility for openly gay boys to join, those boys would do just as well as the other boys. However I do agree on the openly gay leaders, if a woman, who likes men OR women cannot be a leader in boy scouts then maybe it would be fair to say that a man, who likes other men, should not be able to be a leader. A woman who likes men is the same as a man who likes men. It would be then a double standard.

 

I understand where they come from but I do hope that there will be a change entering the Boy Scouts of America at sometime.

 

The Eagle Award is a big award, a huge one, and shouldn't have to be given back because the Boy Scouts decide to make their rules so harsh.

 

I enjoy being a Girl Scout because we don't have many of these problems, we have them, but not like this.

If you want to be a Boy Scout you should be able to be a Boy Scout.

[Secre]

I think what also gets me about it is that in their own rules they are going against the tenants of their very organisation. A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, cheerful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. How can a Scout be trustworthy or loyal when he is turning his back on his friends, neighbours or other vulnerable people simply because of their sexual orientation? How can a Scout be helpful and kind when he is discriminating against those who are most vulnerable to bullying and most in need of a helping hand? How can a Scout be courteous when those who are most in need are the ones who are being turned away? How can a Scout be classed as thrifty when he is rejecting the gifts that God has given to a set of people and the values that they could bring to the group or organisation simply because they are different to him? How can a Scout class himself as clean when he is allying himself with a group which is being as discriminatory and unfair as the slavers were against the blacks which we now see as out-dated and completely repulsive? And surely the only way a Scout can class himself as brave is if he stands up against this kind of mindless discrimination against a set of people whose only crime is to love someone of the same gender.

 

Above and beyond all of this a Scout vows to do his best by his God and his Country. And to do your best by your God is to go with the commandments of the New Testament which preaches love and compassion. Jesus was the one who wrote in the sand in order to take the men’s eyes off the adulterer, Jesus was the one who sat with the tax collectors and the sinners. So even if you hold the view that homosexuality is a sin, which is nowhere near as clear cut as some Christians would have you believe, you cannot be holding by the values of your God if you exclude them. Instead you should welcome them with open arms and sit and eat with them whilst the rest of the world gapes at you. That is what Jesus did time and time again throughout the New Testament. Obedience is all well and good, but blind obedience against what is right and what is just goes against everything which any Christian organisation should stand for.

I have by the way stolen this shamelessly from an article I wrote on it as I couldn't be bothered to re-word - I'm not trying to get anyone to read it but just wanted you to know that I haven't simply plagerised someone elses words and then claiming them for my own.

 

http://socyberty.com.../#ixzz22PCmosJE

 

 

I'm interested to read about the Girl Guides who seem so much more tolerant and respectful than the BSA. You'd have thought when you have two organisations that are so blatently similar just with different genders that they would have a similar way of dealing with the youngsters that they are supposedly trying to lead into good and honest adulthoods. The fact that they allow women to lead scouts shows that this has got nothing to do with sex and everything to do with discrimination; in fact it's bordering on slanderous to say that just because they are homosexual they are peadophiles if that is there argument. I am a female who has relationships with males; this does not mean that I am going to find an 11-18 year old boy attractive; that would be abuse and completely wrong. What alot of this seems to stem from is that they BSA are strongly led by the Mormon church and are going with their completely discriminatory views; this is the same church that allows more than one wife if I am correct which to me would seem far more immoral than homosexuality could ever be!!

 

I'm amazed at how many youngsters are turning in their medals - but I am also amazed and very struck by how many people who have held onto their medals for nigh on 40 years are sending them back to the BSA with covering letters explaining exactly why they are doing so.

 

 

 

Is one of many and there is a really heart felt one in which a man who has led in the Scouts for 18 years comes out as gay to the BSA:

 

I have seen what has happened to those before me. I know the standard procedure. I will be issued the standard letter of expulsion. My name will be removed from all records. Though I was presented my medal, here after, it will be as though this Eagle Scout never existed. The BSA will seek to strip me of 18 years of my life. I thank God that I have been able to continue working within the organization, helping those gay and lesbian scouts and scouters come out to themselves rather than live the self-loathing lives that Scouting would enforce.

 

Sorry for the insanely long post; I'll stop rambling now!!

 

Oh and thank ye Spritzie!

[Leigh]

homophobia

 

noun

unreasoning fear of homosexuals and homosexuality.

 

 

First of all, I'm tired of seeing this word misused. Phobia is a fear. Religious beliefs that do not support homosexual practices are not a fear. They're a belief system. The same way that some religions don't believe in eating certain meats. It's what they believe. And there has been no disproving of religion, so in all actuality, hell could exist and people could be going there for their sins so why harbor hatred for people only concerned with making sure their friends and family don't get stuck in an eternal fire and brimstone pit. I consider it true love that someone else cares for my eternal soul, whether or not i believe in it. I'm not getting into a religious debate, but i literally lost 3 gay friends on FB yesterday for the whole Chik-fil-a fiasco.

 

My exboyfriend from high school came out in college and is a very happy gay individual. He's also an Eagle Scout. I went to his ceremony. He has no intention of giving up his hard-earned eagle badge. He understands that they're against the gay community, but he told me a few months ago, "You know what Abby? I don't care if the religious community doesn't agree with me because the entire country seems to be against them. They're as discriminated against as I am."

 

And here's a little wake up for everyone in the USA who is boycotting/bashing/disagreeing/and hating against every group that is anti-gay: OPEC is the group in the middle east from whom we buy our gasoline. If you're going to boycott the Eagles, Chik-fil-a, and any other organization who is anti-gay, will you boycott your gasoline? OPEC kills people for being openly homosexual. But you're not going to give up your car, are you? It's so easy to fight for your case when it's not inconvenient to you. So i ask you, think about your life and the bandwagons causes you jump on whenever there is a media outpouring for responses... Do you really care enough for that cause to boycott everyone who disagrees or only the people it's convenient to disagree with?

[Welcome Back Apathy]

And here's a little wake up for everyone in the USA who is boycotting/bashing/disagreeing/and hating against every group that is anti-gay: OPEC is the group in the middle east from whom we buy our gasoline. If you're going to boycott the Eagles, Chik-fil-a, and any other organization who is anti-gay, will you boycott your gasoline? OPEC kills people for being openly homosexual. But you're not going to give up your car, are you? It's so easy to fight for your case when it's not inconvenient to you. So i ask you, think about your life and the bandwagons causes you jump on whenever there is a media outpouring for responses... Do you really care enough for that cause to boycott everyone who disagrees or only the people it's convenient to disagree with?

 

This goes the other way, too...all the people supporting Chick-Fil-A have this:

 

 

 

But people don't think about the ones that aren't incredibly open about it. Chick-Fil-A and Salvation Army are very open about their anti-homosexuality; Chick-Fil-A donates money not just to fight gay marriage, but to kill gays in other countries. A spokesperson for Salvation Army has said that gays deserve death. The Boy Scouts weren't incredibly open about it until it came out that they WERE forcing out homosexuals. Now they are open about it; now people care. (At least as far as I know, though, the Boy Scouts have not actively been for murdering gay people, unlike Chick-Fil-A and Salvation Army.)

 

People don't think about OPEC so much, even if they ARE open about it. They're alllll the way out there, and we're allll the way over here. But it's true, Americans could boycott them...except not all of America's oil comes from OPEC. We'd be boycotting Canada as well (you know, that country that's totally cool with gay people...) We simply have no way of boycotting the ones that do hate gays without boycotting the ones that don't hate gays.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/america-gas-source.htm

 

 

 

 

Since we're bringing in other companies as well...I know this is getting off the topic a bit, but what do you guys who are for the Chick-Fil-A boycott (as am I, although since I've never been to one in my life I'm not doing any good) think about Boston and other cities not allowing Chick-Fil-A in? (I'm in Boston.)

[Azariah]

The fact that they allow women to lead scouts shows that this has got nothing to do with sex and everything to do with discrimination; in fact it's bordering on slanderous to say that just because they are homosexual they are peadophiles if that is there argument. I am a female who has relationships with males; this does not mean that I am going to find an 11-18 year old boy attractive; that would be abuse and completely wrong.

 

I'm not being mean here D: But this is what my dad and I spoke about before.

 

They allow female leaders HOWEVER they do not allow them to camp with them. The female leaders are not allowed to camp, stay in a tent with a boy even their own son. That is what they are not allowed to do. They would not allow a gay leader to camp either if he was open about it. Now I do understand they don't allow them at all but they could still be leaders to an extent.

 

As much as I know this might sound odd but they are also trying to protect the openly gay man. If he is a leader and a boy decides he doesn't like him he could easily say that the leader molested him for however long and that would cause a big problem. Children are known to make up lies when things don't go their way so why not make a lie like that because they are pissed off?

 

It would be hard to tell who was lying and who was telling the truth, married to a woman, married to a man, gay or straight.

 

I've seen this happen with guilty men, and innocent men. (Articles on the news).

 

It's an easy out for a child/teenager for a little while. Act like the victim.

 

I agree for gay men to be leaders but not camping leaders, same with women.

 

In Girl Scouts a man can be a leader but he cannot camp with the girl scouts.

I'm going to actually look into rules about being an openly homosexual leader in Girl Scouts, I haven't read much about it at all even in my thirteen years of Girl Scouting.

[Secre]

First of all, I'm tired of seeing this word misused. Phobia is a fear. Religious beliefs that do not support homosexual practices are not a fear. They're a belief system. The same way that some religions don't believe in eating certain meats. It's what they believe. And there has been no disproving of religion, so in all actuality, hell could exist and people could be going there for their sins so why harbor hatred for people only concerned with making sure their friends and family don't get stuck in an eternal fire and brimstone pit. I consider it true love that someone else cares for my eternal soul, whether or not i believe in it. I'm not getting into a religious debate, but i literally lost 3 gay friends on FB yesterday for the whole Chik-fil-a fiasco.

 

And here's a little wake up for everyone in the USA who is boycotting/bashing/disagreeing/and hating against every group that is anti-gay: OPEC is the group in the middle east from whom we buy our gasoline. If you're going to boycott the Eagles, Chik-fil-a, and any other organization who is anti-gay, will you boycott your gasoline? OPEC kills people for being openly homosexual. But you're not going to give up your car, are you? It's so easy to fight for your case when it's not inconvenient to you. So i ask you, think about your life and the bandwagons causes you jump on whenever there is a media outpouring for responses... Do you really care enough for that cause to boycott everyone who disagrees or only the people it's convenient to disagree with?

 

I think homophobia was actually only mentioned once and it certainly wasn't by me. I think I mentioned bigotry, intolerance and going against the Christian tenants of love, understanding and tolerance. I would also suggest that it is very different to believe that a certain meat is unclean and therefore cannot be eaten (particularly if you look at the biblical context and these are often meats which would go off more easily etc which at the time in which it was written makes perfect sense) to saying that an entire group of people can be excluded purely due to their sexuality. Particularly a group which should be promoting leadership and understanding.

 

And I'm not from the USA but if I personally discovered that a group was actively encouraging intolerence (let alone killings) of homosexuals, blacks, Jews or any other minority group then yes I would stop buying their products. Fuel wise I would for instance start to look for other sellers who are using a different groups fuel. I have done so in the past on issues I felt strongly enough about and would have no issues in doing the same in the future.

 

They allow female leaders HOWEVER they do not allow them to camp with them. The female leaders are not allowed to camp, stay in a tent with a boy even their own son. That is what they are not allowed to do. They would not allow a gay leader to camp either if he was open about it. Now I do understand they don't allow them at all but they could still be leaders to an extent.

 

As much as I know this might sound odd but they are also trying to protect the openly gay man. If he is a leader and a boy decides he doesn't like him he could easily say that the leader molested him for however long and that would cause a big problem. Children are known to make up lies when things don't go their way so why not make a lie like that because they are pissed off?

 

I agree for gay men to be leaders but not camping leaders, same with women.

 

Now that makes sense. I can perfectly understand that. And I do understand your reasoning about the male being left wide open to allegations. But equally I can remember for example doing my Duke of Edinburgh award with both male and female students of both sexual orientations and male and female teachers of whose sexuality it was none of my beeswax in all honesty. There was no problem and never had been a problem before or after. You have boys camping together and leaders camping together; sexuality should never really become an issue!

[Azariah]

Now that makes sense. I can perfectly understand that. And I do understand your reasoning about the male being left wide open to allegations. But equally I can remember for example doing my Duke of Edinburgh award with both male and female students of both sexual orientations and male and female teachers of whose sexuality it was none of my beeswax in all honesty. There was no problem and never had been a problem before or after. You have boys camping together and leaders camping together; sexuality should never really become an issue!

 

I would so totally agree except for the fact that its happened. They've had many cases in which a leader was tried and convicted of molesting his boys.

If he however, sleeps by himself, or even with his own son (if he has one) then honestly it could be fine but I do understand why they don't allow that. The camping would be the only part I would agree with, they shouldn't camp.

 

But I would be fine with an openly gay leader and so would my brother.

[cleomiele]

I would so totally agree except for the fact that its happened. They've had many cases in which a leader was tried and convicted of molesting his boys.

If he however, sleeps by himself, or even with his own son (if he has one) then honestly it could be fine but I do understand why they don't allow that. The camping would be the only part I would agree with, they shouldn't camp.

 

But I would be fine with an openly gay leader and so would my brother.

 

Having never been a part of Boy/Girl Scouts in any way, but only seen it from afar, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding why a leader's sexuality, or anyone's really, would be a relevant issue anyway. If they did start allowing homosexual scout leaders to be a part of the Boy Scout activities, would they include a disclaimer for all participants like, "FYI, the scout leader is gay! Be on your toes!" That just seems really...irrelevant. Unimportant. Even if a leader was openly gay, what reason would he have to tell his scouts? How or why would anyone need to know? (does this make sense? I'm having trouble articulating exactly what I'm thinking...)

 

Something that I wish more people would understand--not you, TDN debaters, but people at large!--is that just because someone is homosexual does not mean they cannot help themselves in regards to the gender they are attracted to. I understand your caution, Azariah, about openly gay leaders being possible targets for slander--which I hadn't thought about myself until now, actually--but it just makes me very disheartened that that is even a thing that can happen because someone is gay. I know this happens to straight people as well, but it is obviously much easier to make seem believable when used against a gay person. Our society is far from equality...

[Azariah]

Having never been a part of Boy/Girl Scouts in any way, but only seen it from afar, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding why a leader's sexuality, or anyone's really, would be a relevant issue anyway. If they did start allowing homosexual scout leaders to be a part of the Boy Scout activities, would they include a disclaimer for all participants like, "FYI, the scout leader is gay! Be on your toes!" That just seems really...irrelevant. Unimportant. Even if a leader was openly gay, what reason would he have to tell his scouts? How or why would anyone need to know? (does this make sense? I'm having trouble articulating exactly what I'm thinking...)

 

Something that I wish more people would understand--not you, TDN debaters, but people at large!--is that just because someone is homosexual does not mean they cannot help themselves in regards to the gender they are attracted to. I understand your caution, Azariah, about openly gay leaders being possible targets for slander--which I hadn't thought about myself until now, actually--but it just makes me very disheartened that that is even a thing that can happen because someone is gay. I know this happens to straight people as well, but it is obviously much easier to make seem believable when used against a gay person. Our society is far from equality...

 

I totally understand where your coming from but Boy Scouts does background checks for leaders. They will know eventually and it could just make it worse for the man if he doesn't state it that he is open about it. If he isn't then that is a whole different thing, just like boys themselves who are not open, no one would know unless they say it. I don't think anyone has the right to know unless they are open about it but if you are going to be camping with the same gender it should be known. But that is also why if a woman cannot camp with boys who is straight then a man cannot camp with boys if he likes boys.

 

It's to keep away the double standard but also protect them from accusations that could come of it.

 

And yes, I know a lot of people don't see the good part in this. They are taking a stand for what they believe in but they are also protecting the leaders and boys out there.

 

I agree with the last part 100%. It's not equal and it won't be for a long time I think. :/ Religion is a huge base of the problems but at the same time so is culture. They both have their own ideas about it and many people will not change.

 

I don't honestly see this advancing a whole lot until my generation has kids, and even their kids having kids. I just don't think many people have it in them to yet accept that some people are different.

 

A lot of people still don't accept me but a lot of people do. The world is changing and we just need to kick start it better.