Unstream Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 Marriage is between one man and one woman. It has been that way since the term was first used. I have no problem with interracial marriage, nor do I have a problem with civil unions for gays. They should be allowed some sort of relationship, but calling it "marriage" is a step too far. That's why it's not just marriage. It's GAY marriage. We'd all agree that a car has four wheels, right? So, if I invented a three-wheeled car, would it no longer be a car, since a car should have four wheels? Of course it's a car, it's just a variation of a car. So even though it wouldn't be just a plain old marriage, it's still a variation of a marriage. It's a specific form of a marriage; a marriage between members of the same sex, hence the adjective in front of it, gay. I believe that they should have the same legal rights as any married couple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane for Wax Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I do not believe in marriage, however if someone wishes to get married to the person they love, more power to them. America was based on the ideals of freedom, that should include the freedom to marry who you want whether they are the same gender as you or not. Marriage is defined as: any close or intimate association or union. Also: a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other There was marriage before there was the idea of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macabre Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I think gay should be allowed to marriage.To me saying gays cant marry would be like saying colored people cant be married.They cant help there skin color and gays cant help that they like the same gender. There are no concrete studies that show that gays are born gay. There was marriage before there was the idea of God. What do you base that assumption upon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane for Wax Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Where do you base the idea that it's an assumption? The Pagans had a marriage ceremony, they did not believe in the one true God. Buddists marry, they don't believe in the Christian God. Back before any real religion there was marriage. Back in the old days marriage was not so much a pledge of love rather it was a ceremony to gain lands and to unite families and clans, to stop rivalries and to arrange for alliances. It is not so much an assumption as it is cold hard facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levana Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Marriage is between one man and one woman. It has been that way since the term was first used. It depends on what you mean by "term." If we're talking Biblically, ancient Jews and other groups at the time had a term for marriage, but it was considered a property agreement that wasn't equal. Polygamy was considered a definition of marriage at that time, too - not just one man and one woman. Interreligious and interracial marriage used to be taboo until recently; in short, our definition of marriage changes all the time. If you are interested in my personal opinion, suffice it to say I completely agree with Jon Stewart's argument here, in his interview with Mike Huckabee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macabre Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Where do you base the idea that it's an assumption? The Pagans had a marriage ceremony, they did not believe in the one true God. Buddists marry, they don't believe in the Christian God. Back before any real religion there was marriage. Back in the old days marriage was not so much a pledge of love rather it was a ceremony to gain lands and to unite families and clans, to stop rivalries and to arrange for alliances. It is not so much an assumption as it is cold hard facts. You're defeating your own argument-you did not say before Christianity, but before the idea of God. And, for that matter, all the major religions are against gay marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unstream Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 What Katy says is true. The idea of God probably existed from the beginning of time, because as soon as humans begin to wonder how they and their surroundings came to be, they almost automatically conclude that a greater being must be the answer. And I also disagree with the race argument that was brought up, but not because there is no solid evidence that gays are born gay. There's also no solid evidence that they aren't, and because we don't truly know which it is, we really can't argue that point, and we must assume both or neither. But anyways, interracial marriage is a natural process. Gay marriage is, well, not so natural. But, then again, drinking, substance abuse, and all that junk nowadays isn't natural either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane for Wax Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 You're defeating your own argument-you did not say before Christianity, but before the idea of God. And, for that matter, all the major religions are against gay marriage. Yes, when someone says God they automatically assume the Christian God, that is to what I am referring. What do you consider a major religion? Wicca is the fastest growing religion in America, they are pretty major. They are not against gay marriage. I have seen some evidence that cave men, who did not have time to think about who they were, what they were here for, would marry. It was rare, but it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooger0730 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I do not believe in marriage, however if someone wishes to get married to the person they love, more power to them. America was based on the ideals of freedom, that should include the freedom to marry who you want whether they are the same gender as you or not. Marriage is defined as: any close or intimate association or union. Also: a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other There was marriage before there was the idea of God. Oh my... I agree with Katy on this one. In the United States, Three of the five major religions, including the most popular religion take a stand (according to their religious texts) against Gay Marriage. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. While Atheism/Secularism and Buddhism stand in favor of "freedom". Worldwide, the #1 and #2 religions both stand against gay marriage (Christianity and Islam). And how was there marriage before the idea of "God"? You can't really prove that. If you would like to go by the Torah (which is followed and studied by three major world religions), you can read: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was empty, a formless mass cloaked in darkness, and the Spirit of God was hovering over its surface". So according to Genesis 1:1-2, God was there before the Earth even existed. If you want to go by the Bible's standards, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levana Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 In the United States, Three of the five major religions, including the most popular religion take a stand (according to their religious texts) against Gay Marriage. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. While Atheism/Secularism and Buddhism stand in favor of "freedom". Cooger, I totally agree with you - except I just wanted to clarify this point. Being Jewish myself, I know that one line in the Torah doesn't mean that we as a whole religion "stand" against it - there are many Jews who don't take the Torah literally. There's as much debate on this topic within our religion as there is in America, especially within and between the sects, from very Orthodox to very Reform and secular. If you want to get into the text, the actual line is Leviticus (Vayikra), 18:22. This comes in a section that talks very specifically about who you can't be intimate with, mostly family members. In the sentence, it says that "you shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, it is an abomination." It's just one line. How one interprets this, and how far you want to take it as a stance against an entire issue, mostly depends on the individual and their own beliefs. It also depends on whether you believe that the Torah is the unquestionable "Word of God" (and then, do you literally believe in all of it?) or if it was written by men, and some things can be more easily explained - for example, why it doesn't say that a woman can't lie with other women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane for Wax Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 You're not understanding what the idea of God means. There are people who believe God created the heavens and the earth and the universe. But like i said, why would cavemen bother with such a thing? They were living day by day, they had no time to think on who created them. At any rate, even though the Bible says it is an abomination to be gay, it also teaches to treat others as you want to be treated, to honor thy neighbor. I am a Celtic Pagan, yet I know the Bible. Jesus taught so many things that christians these days do not follow. Why is that? There should be no laws against loving those of your same gender, separation of church and state, as simple as that. It seems people have forgotten that as well. I am bisexual, I do not believe in marriage as a way to pronounce your love for someone, yet I will indeed fight to allow those who share my orientation to be able to marry their significant others. The definition of marriage says a union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*SG* Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Has everyone forgotten that men being with men is etched into our history? That it was common place. Roman, Greek, and many other cultures it was found to be common practice since the only reason a man was to be with a woman was for the purpose of baring a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane for Wax Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 She is right. Romans were famous for it. Emperor Nero even married his male slave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Worldwide, the #1 and #2 religions both stand against gay marriage (Christianity and Islam). And that matters how, exactly? What proof can you give me that those two religions are the "right" ones? There is no "right" religion. Religion = based on beliefs, and people have different beliefs -- even within their own church. Those who are Christian and support gay marriage are proof of that. That being said, your statement isn't relevant. I also wanted to go over a couple more things you said... And how was there marriage before the idea of "God"? You can't really prove that. You can't prove that there wasn't marriage before God. So according to Genesis 1:1-2, God was there before the Earth even existed. If you want to go by the Bible's standards, that is. According to the Bible, sure. But that doesn't mean that people knew about Him, or about everything that's in the Bible today. Humans were created long after the Earth's creation. It took them a very long time to reach the point of the Bible and Christianity. Who's to say that they didn't participate in marriage ceremonies before, as rotcchick081 suggested? I'm not trying to attack you personally, cooger. I'm just strongly stating my disagreement. :) Personally, I do support gay marriage. I agree with what SympliG0thic said earlier: Life is something you need to enjoy, and really, you shouldn't let others stop you from leading a happy life. Yes, the Bible says that marriage is for a man and a woman, but personally, I believe that marriage is for two people who are truly in love and want to be together. Sorry if I've offended anybody. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unstream Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 You're not understanding what the idea of God means. There are people who believe God created the heavens and the earth and the universe. But like i said, why would cavemen bother with such a thing? They were living day by day, they had no time to think on who created them. But how do you know there was a sense of family and marriage? What if back then cavemen just had sex to reproduce and keep the species alive. What if there was no sense of love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moz Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 A better question I think would be "Why DO gays wanna get "married" in the first place -g/w-? Why fight for something that 80'ish% of ends in divorce? heh...but that's just my opinion on marriage in general..... And the answer to that question is they just want the same "rights" as married people...if two gay females live together for 20 yrs (no I'm not gay, but this happened to a friend of mine)...and then one of them dies...it doesn't matter that the one left behind gave their life to the person they lost (at least doesn't matter till the bills come due)....doesn't matter that they loved them with all their heart...doesn't matter that they supported each other through thick and thin...that they did EVERYTHING a "married" couple would do and be for each other including sharing the finanical responsibility...and you know why it doesn't matter? Because unlike the rest of us who take our "rights" for granted..."Gay" people don't have those same rights...and since this IS a "free" country...Yes! If a person wants to live their life with another person of the same sex they most certainly SHOULD have the right to make it legal (and take their chances like the rest of us heeheehee)...whether its called the christians "marriage" or not... An a word for the "bible" thumpers out there...one...hate to be the one to say it...but this IS America...we all DO have the right to believe, think, and want whatever we want...whether thats getting up at 8am on Sunday morning to waste time with a room full of other people who cling to outdated beliefs out of fear or spending the morning in bed snuggled with your "life partner"...Our consistution WAS NOT copied from the christian "bible" and the days of the christian's outnumbering (and therefore being the voting majority) those of us with alternate beliefs are coming to an end...slowly but surely...so you might not like it...may think it's "wrong" (but who're YOU to say what's right and what's wrong? your christian god thump you on the head and pronounce you moral judge and jury?)...but eventually you will have to learn to live with it, as distasteful as that may be heh...because the day is coming when we all actually DO have the same rights....Just say'n.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirginiaTech Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I totally aggree with unstream in their last point! The cavemen were idiots with a brain the size of peanuts if not smaller. They had no fellings words or communication, let alone diamond rings! Today we are civilized and civilized means acting that way. We are not Romans! Gay marriage should not be legal. Period. And the Christian Bible and God is what I worship to so I completely disagree with the idea of gay marriage. In this new day and age we have to hold harder to what we belive in. I believe in God so when the "bible" is brought up and then disbanded by forumers then that makes my point stronger. We have to hold on! That means no gay marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 And the Christian Bible and God is what I worship to so I completely disagree with the idea of gay marriage. In this new day and age we have to hold harder to what we belive in. I believe in God so when the "bible" is brought up and then disbanded by forumers then that makes my point stronger. We have to hold on! That means no gay marriage. But the thing is, other people don't worship the same things you do, or believe the same things you do. What's right for you isn't necessarily right for everybody else, y'know? ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Cat Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think gay marriage should be as legal as a "normal" marriage. Seriously, the Bible was written so long ago that some of the views are outdated by today's standards. Think about it this way: if we all followed the Incan religion, we'd be sacrificing people. But that was the view of their time, and that's how they practiced it then. In our society today, it's barbaric. Gay marriage was the same back in that time, but this is a different time period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Apple of His Eye Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Oh the arguments I have had based on this issue. I'll try to limit it to only the marriage part. Whether or not homosexuality is a sin, blah blah blah, I'll try to avoid. There is absolutely no argument to saying that homosexual marriage should not be legal that isn't religious. I'm a firm believer in God, all my faith is in Him, but this isn't a religious argument. It's a political one. By making gay marriage illegal, we're denying people rights. Once upon a time, we denied people rights based on color and gender and those were based around religious arguments as well. (You'd be amazed how many people deny this or say "Well those were distorted arguments" as if this one isn't distorted as well). Yet those have changed and so will this one. Aside from the typical religious arguments, others are completely fallacious or just an attempt to make excuses. Trying to use AIDs as an argument against homosexual marriage or saying they'll teach it in schools I've noticed is just trying to scare people, when in the end the people using it are the same old religious people. Until someone can provide a good reason that isn't religious, there's no reason gay marriage should be an issue at all. They're people like the rest of us. They raise children just as well as most heterosexual couples. I saw The Pursuit of Equality recently, and that was a wonderful experience. And heartbreaking at the same time, to watch couples be denied that right. One couple had an 18-year-old son who was crying right along with him. He didn't seem to mind having two moms at all yet all I ever hear is how abnormal children of same-sex couples are going to turn out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikkiH Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 ok i just want to kinda add my 2 cents in this as far as religion goes everyone has there right to believe in whatever they choose and for some ppl that is that being gay is ok and also we are not even the only species to practice being gay. and as far as it all being legal it should be but it needs to have its own name i have been to a gay wedding of 2 women and i just think it was weird having it be wife and wife and i do think they should have there own name to it cuz a wife is to a husband and thats how it needs to stay but thats more just cuz husband husband sounds weird and if it had its own terms ppl might be able to accept it better. also it is just fair that ppl who devote themselves to each other even being the same sex should have the same rights as a man and a women do because the rights are government based and religion should not be able to have influence on that even though it does which is not cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirginiaTech Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 At any rate, even though the Bible says it is an abomination to be gay, it also teaches to treat others as you want to be treated, to honor thy neighbor. I am a Celtic Pagan, yet I know the Bible. Jesus taught so many things that christians these days do not follow. Why is that? There should be no laws against loving those of your same gender, separation of church and state, as simple as that. It seems people have forgotten that as well. I am bisexual, I do not believe in marriage as a way to pronounce your love for someone, yet I will indeed fight to allow those who share my orientation to be able to marry their significant others. The definition of marriage says a union. It says to treat oneonther as you would be treated.. not hate some gay dude. my uncles gay and i stilll love him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unstream Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 I totally aggree with unstream in their last point! The cavemen were idiots with a brain the size of peanuts if not smaller. They had no fellings words or communication, let alone diamond rings! Today we are civilized and civilized means acting that way. We are not Romans! Gay marriage should not be legal. Period. Eheh, that wasn't really my point. I was just getting rid of some bad arguments. Basically, making gay marriage illegal violates the US Constitution. Just because Christianity is the dominating religion doesn't mean that its view should become law. And claiming that we're too civilized to allow gay marriage isn't too good of an argument either. I mean, I doubt drugs and drinking is civilized, and yet you don't see Christians trying to get that outlawed. And other point. Remember how the Bible says that all sins are the same to God? So lieing can very well be like gay marriage. I mean they're all sins right? The Bible says God views them all as the same. And what's important is separation between church and state. The founding fathers were sure to add that into the Constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*SG* Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 The down right simple answer to WHY they want to isn't hard to find. They want the same rights as any other married couple. To file taxes together, to have medical benefits for their partners, and to have rights to any children the couple chooses to deem so. As of current day laws: Gay couples cannot file married and it be recognized by the federal government. If a gay partner passes away and is the biological parent to a child , the surviving partner has no rights to the children even if they adopted them. Federal and State governments will place the child with family, and if none are to be found, they will go to a foster home and the other parent will not be allowed to have them for at least 7 years, and even then they have to re-adopt and re-certify they can care for the child. And that's still saying the foster facility will even allow a gay person to adopt. (That's another debate entirely) And plain and simple they are people that are protected under our constitution to have equal rights as everyone else and there are state laws put in place specifically to keep them from that right. -pants- There. Can we end this topic soon? -blah- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Apple of His Eye Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 A better question I think would be "Why DO gays wanna get "married" in the first place -g/w-? Why fight for something that 80'ish% of ends in divorce? heh...but that's just my opinion on marriage in general..... And the answer to that question is they just want the same "rights" as married people...if two gay females live together for 20 yrs (no I'm not gay, but this happened to a friend of mine)...and then one of them dies...it doesn't matter that the one left behind gave their life to the person they lost (at least doesn't matter till the bills come due)....doesn't matter that they loved them with all their heart...doesn't matter that they supported each other through thick and thin...that they did EVERYTHING a "married" couple would do and be for each other including sharing the finanical responsibility...and you know why it doesn't matter? Because unlike the rest of us who take our "rights" for granted..."Gay" people don't have those same rights...and since this IS a "free" country...Yes! If a person wants to live their life with another person of the same sex they most certainly SHOULD have the right to make it legal (and take their chances like the rest of us heeheehee)...whether its called the christians "marriage" or not... An a word for the "bible" thumpers out there...one...hate to be the one to say it...but this IS America...we all DO have the right to believe, think, and want whatever we want...whether thats getting up at 8am on Sunday morning to waste time with a room full of other people who cling to outdated beliefs out of fear or spending the morning in bed snuggled with your "life partner"...Our consistution WAS NOT copied from the christian "bible" and the days of the christian's outnumbering (and therefore being the voting majority) those of us with alternate beliefs are coming to an end...slowly but surely...so you might not like it...may think it's "wrong" (but who're YOU to say what's right and what's wrong? your christian god thump you on the head and pronounce you moral judge and jury?)...but eventually you will have to learn to live with it, as distasteful as that may be heh...because the day is coming when we all actually DO have the same rights....Just say'n.... Just a little nit pick that, while the divorce rates are deplorably high, they're only at about 48-52% respectively. Not 80-ish. Just pointing that out. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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