Unions - Yay or Nay (Or maybe a mix of both?)

[brynchilla]

For almost every type of job there is, there's a union to go with it. Steel workers, teachers, actors... There's a lot.

But what do you guys think of them?

 

Do you think they're good, bad, somewhere in between?

 

 

 

 

Personally, I'm not too fond of them. I've seen and heard of way too many negative things to outweigh the good. (Really the only good thing I can think of are minimum wage.)

 

My dad is an engineer, and hires people from the union. My parents aren't shy about letting me know about what's going on in the business, so many times they'll talk about it with me around. One of the things they talk about is the union and how annoying it can be. I have 2 examples of what I've heard against unions. (There are more, those are just the 2 that come to my head, and I'm sure more stuff happened that I didn't hear about.)

 

Case #1 - There was a guy working who wasn't very good. He took a lot of vacation time (that wasn't allotted), made unnecessary expenses on the company card (no, you don't need to play golf or invite people to it. Especially since you didn't ask!), faked an injury to get time and money off and just wasn't a good worker. But because he was in a union, he couldn't be fired because of that.

 

Case #2 - Union workers are expected to get a certain number of hours, so sometimes they expect to be picked over non-unions and can get quite pushy. You aren't going to always get the job just because you are a union member. Especially when jobs are slow, and there are other people who need the work just as much as you do!

 

 

Then there are things in the public.

 

A town close to me was building an Olive Garden. They chose not to use Union Workers. So the Union Workers stood outside and spat on people coming into the restaurant and caused a ruckus.

 

Then when a new building was being put up in another town, the Union people stood out and protested with signs because they weren't being used. Last time I checked, it was up to the company to decided who to hire, not you!!

 

 

So, now it's your turn: What do you think about unions? Do you think they are good, bad or a mix of both.

I would love to hear your opinions, and why you think that!

[blowupthesun]

My dad is part of a union, but he works for a government agency. Since they can collect and use money from taxes, its probably much more manageable to have a group of workers saying, hey, you're getting this much money, make sure we're getting enough to pay our bills, go to a doctor, etc.

I work for a really small business. Small as in, my boss is the owner and I'm the only employee at that location. We make enough money to cover my wages and keep inventory, but not much more than that. If I were to say give me more money or I'm out...I'd be out.

For that reason, I can definitely see how a business hiring union workers could be a problem. They can't guarantee how much money they'll be bringing in, how much they'll need to actually operate, etc., so if you have workers that won't make any sort of compromise, trying to keep your business running could be a struggle.

This may be a little off topic, but it reminds me of the debate about tenure for teachers. I was watching a news program about new charter schools, and how one of the things they were doing differently was eliminating tenure, and keeping teachers based on their lesson plans, how the students were improving, and test scores, among other things. Then teachers would be promoted based on merit.

In schools with tenure, teachers are generally promoted by seniority, not merit. so if a teacher stops caring about their students, is bored with their job, and just isn't doing well, they will still have their jobs. It's really hard to get a teacher out of their job, you would have to prove they had done something very wrong, before they would ever be fired.

However, teachers are important, and tenure gives them job security. The way the charter school was going about it, it would probably be harder to get qualified people in, because it's riskier.

I don't know, just some rambling thoughts about that. Sorry if it was a little off topic...

[carlyle]

I think it is the actions that defines the group instead of the group defining the actions. Your experiences demonstrate that some unions are indeed parasites, but I don't think all unions are bad.

 

Unions served a pivotal role in society during the Industrial Revolution. Because there were so many people looking for work, employers could afford to subject their workers to unhealthy, even deadly, working conditions. As a result, dissatisfied workers banded together into unions and fought hard for workers' rights. Including minimum wage, they are responsible for things we see today including health regulations and vacation time. Unions put an end the worst social injustice after slavery was abolished.

 

Now that the government acknowledges workers' rights, I believe that most unions have served their purpose. But going back to whether ALL unions are bad or not, I doubt every nation in the world has enforced workers' rights.

 

Still, past glories don't justify being a nuisance to society or leeching a company dry. Brynchilla, I hope the historical context I provided helps you view unions overall with less prejudice, but realize more why the unions you talk about are not only bad, but meaningless. If union leaders don't have the insight to earn the respect of a community that naturally sympathizes with mistreated workers, then their organizations lack the talent to do anything helpful in the first place.

[passiflora]

Disclaimer: I can only speak for my experiences - I don't know what it's like in other countries!

 

(Really the only good thing I can think of are minimum wage.)

 

Actually, I feel like some of the most basic worker rights (minimum wage, safety, etc.) are now legislated by government and apply to everyone, not just unionized workers. So unions aren't needed as much in this regard anymore; their benefit comes in advocating for higher-than-minimum wage, overtime and shift differential pay, pensions, and other benefits. They will also advocate for you if you feel discriminated against. Of course, everyone is protected from discrimination by law, but I think unions provide a more direct/immediate benefit in this regard (issues are often resolved before they need to be taken to court).

 

I've never heard of anything like the stories you've told, but the unions that make the news here tend to be the ones that represent specific groups of people (public employees/government workers, healthcare workers, specialized professions, etc.)

 

 

Case #1 - There was a guy working who wasn't very good. He took a lot of vacation time (that wasn't allotted), made unnecessary expenses on the company card (no, you don't need to play golf or invite people to it. Especially since you didn't ask!), faked an injury to get time and money off and just wasn't a good worker. But because he was in a union, he couldn't be fired because of that.

 

Union workers can be fired, it just requires a lot of documentation, and I think sometimes managers don't think the documentation is worth the effort. I know 2 people that have been fired from unions - one was related to abuse of vacation/sick time, and another was related to coming in late and abusing allotted break time. Neither were good workers, but the grounds for termination was regular documentation and progressive discipline (verbal warning, written warning, suspension, regular meetings with the union) related to direct breaches of the collective agreement between the union and the employer. The union would protect someone from being fired for "just wasn't a good worker" - the union and the employer define together, objectively, what makes a good worker. If the employee doesn't follow this, they should be able to be fired, even if they are in the union.

 

---------------------------------

 

In my experience, the worst part about unions is that they generate complacency. Even if people are good workers, they aren't motivated to be great workers because all benefits/promotions are based on the number of hours you put in (seniority) as opposed to the quality of your work. Unions tend to benefit those who already have secure jobs, rather than new employees or young professionals looking to enter the workforce. This is probably because more experienced employees and less turnover is generally beneficial to companies, but in some of the unionized workplaces I've been in, I don't think this is necessarily the case. And, despite what I said in the previous paragraph, it is true that "bad" workers will push the limits of their rights and often abuse the system.

[brynchilla]

I think it is the actions that defines the group instead of the group defining the actions. Your experiences demonstrate that some unions are indeed parasites, but I don't think all unions are bad.

 

Unions served a pivotal role in society during the Industrial Revolution. Because there were so many people looking for work, employers could afford to subject their workers to unhealthy, even deadly, working conditions. As a result, dissatisfied workers banded together into unions and fought hard for workers' rights. Including minimum wage, they are responsible for things we see today including health regulations and vacation time. Unions put an end the worst social injustice after slavery was abolished.

 

Now that the government acknowledges workers' rights, I believe that most unions have served their purpose. But going back to whether ALL unions are bad or not, I doubt every nation in the world has enforced workers' rights.

 

Still, past glories don't justify being a nuisance to society or leeching a company dry. Brynchilla, I hope the historical context I provided helps you view unions overall with less prejudice, but realize more why the unions you talk about are not only bad, but meaningless. If union leaders don't have the insight to earn the respect of a community that naturally sympathizes with mistreated workers, then their organizations lack the talent to do anything helpful in the first place.

You're right, unions did do a lot in the past to try to help things. (I took a European history class, and there was a section on unions. It was both interesting and worrying.)

 

I do like to think that there are more good unions than bad, because I like to think that for most things. Sometimes it's just difficult to see the good when all you've seen is the bad.

 

Disclaimer: I can only speak for my experiences - I don't know what it's like in other countries!

 

 

Actually, I feel like some of the most basic worker rights (minimum wage, safety, etc.) are now legislated by government and apply to everyone, not just unionized workers. So unions aren't needed as much in this regard anymore; their benefit comes in advocating for higher-than-minimum wage, overtime and shift differential pay, pensions, and other benefits. They will also advocate for you if you feel discriminated against. Of course, everyone is protected from discrimination by law, but I think unions provide a more direct/immediate benefit in this regard (issues are often resolved before they need to be taken to court).

 

I've never heard of anything like the stories you've told, but the unions that make the news here tend to be the ones that represent specific groups of people (public employees/government workers, healthcare workers, specialized professions, etc.)

 

 

 

Union workers can be fired, it just requires a lot of documentation, and I think sometimes managers don't think the documentation is worth the effort. I know 2 people that have been fired from unions - one was related to abuse of vacation/sick time, and another was related to coming in late and abusing allotted break time. Neither were good workers, but the grounds for termination was regular documentation and progressive discipline (verbal warning, written warning, suspension, regular meetings with the union) related to direct breaches of the collective agreement between the union and the employer. The union would protect someone from being fired for "just wasn't a good worker" - the union and the employer define together, objectively, what makes a good worker. If the employee doesn't follow this, they should be able to be fired, even if they are in the union.

 

---------------------------------

 

In my experience, the worst part about unions is that they generate complacency. Even if people are good workers, they aren't motivated to be great workers because all benefits/promotions are based on the number of hours you put in (seniority) as opposed to the quality of your work. Unions tend to benefit those who already have secure jobs, rather than new employees or young professionals looking to enter the workforce. This is probably because more experienced employees and less turnover is generally beneficial to companies, but in some of the unionized workplaces I've been in, I don't think this is necessarily the case. And, despite what I said in the previous paragraph, it is true that "bad" workers will push the limits of their rights and often abuse the system.

Firing/laying off someone in the union is difficult because of all the things you have to do. You're also right about how some managers just don't think it's worth all the time to get one person off.

 

People can push the limits of anything, which is rather sad.

[Kute]

I used to work for Disneyland Resort. Almost every single position you could take up there (stores, foods, etc) were union. I rather liked it because there was always a union rep on hand if you needed one, and they really helped a LOT. A lot of people got away with dumb things, which I know anywhere else they would be fired. Which was a nice save for those in unfortunate positions. But then there were people who straight up abused the system. It was annoying because they weren't hard workers and used the union as their personal shield. I personally never had any drama that led me to dealing with that stuff, but I know that they were there to back me up. I had a position that was a little more er... challenging? I guess? Where a lot could fall back on me as i was suppose to be an example for my job. I felt like my union was really involved with us. We often got to vote for changes we wanted to see and they actually listened. The only thing I did not enjoy was the fact that unlike Disneyworld (who did not have union or.. i think... had the same union for many departments?) were allowed to cross train in different sections. So they could legit rack up 50 hrs+ a week if they could find people giving time away. (going from stores, to attractions to food) Which we didnt get to do because all our unions were different for all the departments :( but I guess bottom line is union is pretty cool.