smumpkins Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 What is an unforgivable sin? Taking the life of another is considered an unforgivable sin. However, if you're taking a life to protect yourself or someone else, is it forgivable? If you're a kind-hearted person, and you have to take a life to protect a life, is it not forgivable? I want to hear your input on this one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Levy Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Forgivable by whom? If someone is killed in self defense then the US Government won't throw you in jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smumpkins Posted November 9, 2007 Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 That's not entirely true. If someone breaks into my house, and attacks me, I'm not legally allowed to use a gun on them unless they've got one pointed at me. Meaning, if they point it at someone else, I can't use it. I'd have to toss it to that other person, and they'd have to use it to protect their self. Isn't Ohio just the greatest? I was meaning forgivable to your conscience, and (if you believe in God) forgivable by the higher powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strategos Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I don't think that it's forgivable mainly because of my extensive background in criminal justice. However, this is in specific relation to your gun example. If one kills a person by partial accident (meaning you lure them onto a dangerous area), I find this particularly unforgivable. The only time I find it forgivable if is your life is in definite danger, such as when a known killer comes into your house, points a gun at you, and tells you you're going to die in 5 seconds. That's a different situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Levy Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 That's not entirely true. If someone breaks into my house, and attacks me, I'm not legally allowed to use a gun on them unless they've got one pointed at me. Meaning, if they point it at someone else, I can't use it. I'd have to toss it to that other person, and they'd have to use it to protect their self. Isn't Ohio just the greatest? I was meaning forgivable to your conscience, and (if you believe in God) forgivable by the higher powers. Wow, you must be psychic or something. I am getting to a part in my story where the main character has to kill some bad people in order to save someone. I won't get into the details but, he does feel remorse for what he has done even though it was to save a loved one. But think about it, would it be more painful to live through your life without your loved one or would you rather have the lives of a couple of despicable criminals on your conscience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smumpkins Posted November 9, 2007 Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 Either way, you have the weight of a life that will continue with you until the day you die. I mean, I don't care much about my own life, but if someone pointed a gun at Veronique (as an example), I would do anything to save her, even if that meant to kill someone. Taking a life is considered one of the greatest sins in the Bible, but there are extenuating circumstances for everything. If someone was pointing a gun at someone else, I'd try to talk them out of it. But, if it was a loved one they were pointing the gun at, I'd do more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie_Penguin Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I do believe it is forgivable. Let's say someone does break into your house and you are trying to yell for help, but no one listens and you cannot get the phone to call 911. The burgler is doing everything he can to kill you so obviously you start to kick him or throw things at him; you try everything to get him out of your way and escape. Why is do I believe it is forgivable? Because your intentions are to escape, not to kill the person. If you end up killing the bad guy it's because it just got out of your hands. What if you came running down the stairs and then the burgler takes your leg and as you try to escape he just falls down, knocks his head and dies? I mean when someone is trying to hurt you or when you see a burgler entering your house, you don't go like "omg a thief =kills him=" you just try to ESCAPE to save your life. And you have to take into consideration that you are under huge panic and stress. Now, if you see a burgler and you kill him right away even though he hasn't tried to hurt you, then that's another thing. But, if you are trying to escape and you accidentally kill the burgler then it isn't your fault, is it? Your intentions weren't to kill the guy, you were just thinking to escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiaircraft Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 A good point. In addition to that, I think that even if you kill a person to protect yourself/somebody else with a clear intention to kill that person, it is still justifiable as long as that person is a definite or highly likely threat. I mean, isn't that the whole point of countries having militaries and police forces armed with lethal weapons? To give them the power to take live(s) in order to protect other live(s)? And personally, on a one-to-one scale, if you kill in self-defense or in defense of somebody else (which basically makes you a hero) against somebody who has an intention to kill you or the other person, then that's perfectly justified. What else are you supposed to do - sit there while he kills you/the other person? But probably whichever way you pick, your conscience will still bother you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smumpkins Posted November 9, 2007 Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 Okay, now that all of you feel that same way, think of it from a religious standpoint. If you were a devout Christian, would you still feel that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie_Penguin Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Okay, now that all of you feel that same way, think of it from a religious standpoint. If you were a devout Christian, would you still feel that way? Well I'm Catholic and I don't see anything wrong IF you didn't mean to kill the person who is trying to hurt you. Like I said, sometimes it is out of your control. If anyone ever tried to hurt me, of course I won't try to kill the person, but I will try to get away. I believe it is a sin if you do it intentionally, but if you never intended to kill the bad guy, then it's not really your fault. I think it's very rare that a burgler gets murdered by the victim, at least I haven't heard of cases lately. According to my beliefs, murdering is a sin when you do it intentionally because of hate, evil, etc. Protecting your life is not a sin, I mean if you just stay there and let everyone hurt you that would be some sort of suicide. To give you another example, I saw on the news not too long ago about a KFC owner being attacked at gunpoint. The guy fought for his life and tried to keep the gun away from him. The gun fired everywhere. If the bad guy had gotten shot because of the owner trying to keep it away from him, it wouldn't be his fault. Why? Because his intentions were to keep the gun away from him, NOT to shoot the bad guy. Then, imagine if the owner had taken the gun and shot the bad guy right away. Then, that would be wrong because he did it out of revenge not as an actual act of self defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smumpkins Posted November 9, 2007 Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 I'm trying to get you to think of it this way: I'm at home, and I have a gun for protection. Someone breaks into my home, and I take my gun in hand to threaten the person to get out of my house. However, they have a gun, and you can tell that they're ready to use it. So, you shoot, first. If you just shoot to maim, odds are that they'll just shoot you back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiaircraft Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I'd shoot to kill. Even though I am a Christian, I still think that if you kill somebody that you are sure is intending to kill you or somebody you wish to protect, it's forgiveable. Note that I mean this in self-defense, not murder - if you're given a viable alternative, then take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smumpkins Posted November 9, 2007 Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 That's how I'm thinking, Theo. Of course, I'm not a Christian, so I think of it more from a moral view. But, after the stuff I've been through, I look at things from a far different perspective than anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome_Paul Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Its hard to say on this topic, But my opinion is that: If someone did break in ('B'), and pointed a gun at someone (lets call this person 'A') He may be pointing a gun, but it could be just to scare them, NOT to kill them (what some criminals do, scare the victim into giving them valuables) But even with a Gun, I wouldn't shoot him. I would do the exact same thing, Point the gun at him, and say "Shoot 'A' and I shoot you" Just to scare them, They will most likely think "okay, if i do shoot 'A', he will shoot me, so its not the best choice" And the burglar will escape. That way, you have time to call the police and get them. But if you shoot the burglar while he is only pointing a Gun, that is Unforgivable, and you should be sent to Jail, because all you know, it could be unloaded or hes using it to scare the other person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie_Penguin Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I agree with Vivi. In those sort of situations what you would do is "test" the burgler by trying to run away. IF he shoots then you know his true intentions and you have an "excuse" to shoot him in order to get away; however, if you shoot him, you have to shoot him to escape NOT in order to kill him (i.e. shoot him in places that won't be a threat to his life). In that case, it is forgivable, but if he tries to shoot you and you shoot back and keep shooting until he's dead then, that's not forgivable from my point of view. Like I mentioned before, if your intentions are only to escape, then it is forgivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smumpkins Posted November 9, 2007 Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 Mr Penguin, you're not understanding what I'm saying. Let's say that you have no choice but to kill. There are people that even if you shoot them, they'll shoot back unless you shoot to kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome_Paul Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Wht so you are saying. If a burglar killed a member of our family We had a gun and shot the Burglar. We would be doing exactly the same thing the burglar has done. Mainly because, he has attacked another, he hasn't pointed nor shot the gun at you, so it cannot be considered self defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie_Penguin Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Mr Penguin, you're not understanding what I'm saying. Let's say that you have no choice but to kill. There are people that even if you shoot them, they'll shoot back unless you shoot to kill. I know what you're saying, which is why I'm saying you should know ahead about what to do so that you won't have to end up in that situation. If you shot him in one leg and he shoots back, you can shoot him on the other leg and then run. See, I believe we should have mercy even to those who try to hurt us, so if you're able to escape after you shot him once, then call the police and also tell them the guy is injured. If he shoots back again, you can try to throw stuff at his hand so he can drop the gun. Like I said, I think a case where you shoot someone to death is very rare because, after a shot you're usually able to run and call for help. Which is why you shouldn't think of shooting him many times, instead try to take away his gun using anything that's around you. Once you have the weapon in your hand and if he is injured already, he won't try anything. You can also shoot him once on the leg and then knock him out with a book or something, that way you have plenty of time to run. Technically by the time you shot the guy twice the police would've arrived. I don't know if I'm putting a lot of thought in this, but if I were in that situation I would try to escape instead of killing the bad guy. And there's a reason, maybe the bad guy wanted to kill me for a reason and if I kill him, the truth will die with him. Maybe he wanted to rob me because someone told him to or maybe he is the most wanted in the country and belongs to a gang and we wouldn't be able to catch the gang if he doesn't live to tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smumpkins Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share Posted November 10, 2007 Ah, see, I'm not that forgiving. If someone points a gun at me, they'd better be ready to use it, because I'd be ready to use mine. :yes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiaircraft Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Wht so you are saying. If a burglar killed a member of our family We had a gun and shot the Burglar. We would be doing exactly the same thing the burglar has done. Mainly because, he has attacked another, he hasn't pointed nor shot the gun at you, so it cannot be considered self defense. Actually I think more of what we're talking about is if you're sure that somebody is going to kill a member of your family. In that case, you kill that person to save the family member. Basically I would shoot to kill, but only if I was certain that the other person was going to try to kill me/somebody I wished to protect. If they were just using a lethal weapon for intimidation purposes, then the best alternative would pretty much be to cooperate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome_Paul Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Though Evil Guy, He may be pointing a gun at your family member, But if you shoot him, it wouldn't be self defense, it be Murder. Mainly because, Self defense is when its threatening you not the other person. And even so, why shoot to kill, There are a number of places to shoot him which won't kill him, Shoot him leg, his arm/shoulder/foot. If you shoot him and kill him, i think it be considered Murder. Though I will tell you a related story which is aw in the paper (or in the news): Family of 4, were asleep (father, mother, and 2 young children (think they were 5) The Parents woke up because they heard a noise. Looked out the window, and an drunk 18 Year old was trying to break in. The mother called the police, while the father went down and made sure he didn't get in (ie grapple him). The boy ran, but the man went back and pulled him back to show to the police. Police arrived and arrested THE FATHER! Mainly because, The boy didn't hit the father, yet he was grappling with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Awesome Pants Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Alrighty, here's my stand on this. It really all depends on the situation. In school, we were talking about the legality of the death sentence. Most of us were either for or against because of jail being more of a cruel sentence. Now here, it is rather similar. You may all be talking about personally taking someone's life. But when I think about the title, I think of the court sentenceing a death sentence. That is still taking someone's life and it is possibly to save millions of lives. Now, would you not agree with me that jail would be a more cruel punishment. I learned recently that in jail, for men's and women's jails alike, since there is no mingiling of the genders, the men can get a little.. err.. well "lonely. Same with the women. I would find that torture constantly being assulted in my own cell by someone of the same gender. I'm not for or against same-gender love. I don't take sides on that. It is up to the individuals. Personally, I don't do that sort of thing. Now, with taking someone's life personally, it really is a fine line between saftey and hatred. Wouldn't you say that if someone was about to kill you, you'd be 1) scared 2) mad and 3) hating them terrbbily? Now, see how all those emotions can be jumbled together? Would you not say that killing soemone because they threatened you could be out of hatred? COuld someone be forgiven for that even if they were still partially scared but still hating? God forgives all, if you seek it. If you killed someone, then you should go to confess. You will be forgiven if you are truly sorry and willing to take whatever penace to mend that wrong-doing. That's what I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smumpkins Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share Posted November 10, 2007 Thank you! You see it the way that I do! ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Awesome Pants Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I'm glad to have been of assistance. :) Now why can't I think of this kind of stuff to say in class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiaircraft Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Yeah, I hate public speaking too. XD Though Evil Guy, He may be pointing a gun at your family member, But if you shoot him, it wouldn't be self defense, it be Murder. Mainly because, Self defense is when its threatening you not the other person. And even so, why shoot to kill, There are a number of places to shoot him which won't kill him, Shoot him leg, his arm/shoulder/foot. If you shoot him and kill him, i think it be considered Murder. Though I will tell you a related story which is aw in the paper (or in the news): Family of 4, were asleep (father, mother, and 2 young children (think they were 5) The Parents woke up because they heard a noise. Looked out the window, and an drunk 18 Year old was trying to break in. The mother called the police, while the father went down and made sure he didn't get in (ie grapple him). The boy ran, but the man went back and pulled him back to show to the police. Police arrived and arrested THE FATHER! Mainly because, The boy didn't hit the father, yet he was grappling with him. I didn't say that would be classified as self-defense - you are defending somebody you care for and wish to protect. In the case you mentioned, none of the family members were in direct, definite mortal danger. I'm saying you shoot to kill if you clearly have no viable alternative. Shooting somebody in a non-fatal area might not stop them from killing you/the other person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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