It's The End Of The World As We Know It...

[neggler]

Before I start the debate, I would like to lay down some ground rules:

1. No attacking people for their beliefs
   
2. Back up your belief, don't just state it, WHY do you believe that?
   
3. If you do not agree with someone's idea, please debate it in an adult way
   

 

The world will end, we all know that, either by the enlarging of our G2 sun into a Red Giant, thusly engulfing our planet; or by an ancient prediction from the Mayans. Either way the world will end, but not by the hand of God, instead by the hands of humans. Now I'm not here to debate a specific date nor time of the end, but rather the means to it. Mass Extinction. It has happened many times before and many times before that. Current science data seems to think we, being the Earth, are in for another mass extinction very soon. However, mass extinction does not have to be naturally caused by anyway (i.e. super volcano eruption or meteor crashing into the Earth), it can be artificially caused (i.e. nuclear fall out or uncontrolled biological warfare). As the human race we have achieved so much more than the previous rulers of the Earth, but at what cost? We have many insane dictators and leaders in control of hydrogen bombs, and they have an itchy finger. The United States, according to currently known owned WMDs, is number two in the world with most nukes owned, with Russia leading the charts, and Great Britain close behind the United States. Now you can sit there and say, but those are democracies and no one can go out of control when there's checks and balances. Except the system of checks and balances no longer works when the person controlling the government controls the system. Currently in Russia former member of the KGB, previous rules of the Soviet Union, or USSR, are regaining their positions of power. According to the Russia Today 1,000 underground nuclear bomb shelters have been built, each having the capacity to hold 5,000 people. That's enough shelter for 5,000,000 people, now why would a stable democratic country such as Russia need to build such shelters? America is not immune to the possibility of a maniacal ruler either, I'm not saying any of the previous presidents were maniacal, I'm just simply stating facts. During World War II the White House had been warned time and time again of an attack on Pearl Harbor, yet chose to ignore it and not even send the warning on to the Naval Base causing many avoidable deaths. For what though? Many still debate the reason today, but I feel it was a means to join the war without accused of policing. The American Administration falsified a supposed Naval attack from the Vietnamese in order to have a "just reason" to send the troops in without the approval of Congress; and to this day the Vietnam War was the only war to never have been declared, because the President exercised and flexed his right as president to control the Marines for 80 days at a time. If the President was able to wage his own wars without the system of checks and balances, who's to say the next "presidential war" will not be a nuclear one? I fully believe the end of the world will happen at the hands of humans, and not all at once. Some will survive, that's evolution and natural selection at its finest, others will parish. So no, I do not believe in the Rapture (May 21st, 2011) or the Mayans' prediction (December 21st, 2012) because those seem to indicate a sudden wipe out, and as Charles M. Schulz, author and artist for the comic strip the Peanuts, once said, "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It is already tomorrow in Australia."

[Cornflakes]

It is a common misconception that the Mayans predicted the end of the world. Their calendar merely runs out in 2012...and then begins anew.

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2010/apr/120410-mayans-did-not-predict-world-end.htm

 

And yes, our sun will become a red giant...in approximately five billion years.

(and there's even some debate over whether or not it will affect Earth at all.)

 

As for the other Doomsday theories...well, they've all come and gone, haven't they?

I myself have survived two of them: 9/9/99 and 1/1/00, better known as Y2K.

 

I don't believe that the world is just going to end. And if it does, it won't be a religious-related event.

 

If anything gets us, it will be a giant asteroid. :laughingsmiley:

[neggler]

I agree with you that an asteroid will hit the Earth. In fact if I'm not mistaking April 13th, 2020-something an asteroid the size of Texas will come so close to Earth that it will dip underneath our satellites and go around the sun only to be sling shot right back at us in 2030-something.

 

However, while there is debate over the potential size of the sun, I have heard the sun will grow to be 1AU in diameter and 1AU is the distance from the Earth to the Sun. However, I have also heard the Sun will grow to engulf Mercury and Venus, leaving Earth and the Moon, but turning earth into a Mercury like planet. Thusly making Mars the perfect distance from the Sun to support life. And then once the Sun shrinks back to a white dwarf, causing all the planets to pull closer due to the Theory of Relativity and the massive gravitational pull of a white dwarf, the Earth will again become inhabitable.

[sintralin]

I don't think that the largest risk for humanity is really a state-caused nuclear war. I say "state-caused" because the principles like Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) basically ensure that world leaders will avoid any kind of all out nuclear shoot-out - both sides are likely to suffer such massive damages that neither is willing to risk their country's survival. Even if Russia does have the most nuclear weapons, I do believe that the US still holds nuclear supremacy by a large margin, which was one of the only reasons the GOP were even willing to sign START II recently. And I think that while presidents may get away with quite a lot of things that overstep their authority, deploying nuclear weapons would not be one of them. In fact, Congress has actually been very successful in curbing Presidential actions during the war simply by cutting off the funds needed to keep troops deployed, and get to attach ridiculous standards to which programs/troops get the funding. (1)

 

That said, nuclear weapons are still one of the biggest existential threats we face. I just think that nuclear terrorism is the most likely action that would actually involve the use of a nuclear weapon. Terrorists that have no (willing) state sponsor have little need to worry about nuclear retaliation, and most are ideologically committed to attacking the U.S., etc. In the case of a nuclear terrorist attack, retaliation by the U.S. would probably still not be nuclear, but I still feel that's the greatest risk posed by nuclear weapons. Although the chances of terrorists getting access to a nuclear bomb are still pretty slim atm, since not many states are willing to sponsor them with the technology. The rising instability in the Pakistan government is a pretty big cause for worry, though...

 

In general, I don't think even the most dangerous technology created by humans will result in a complete extinction any time soon, since the deterrents to using those weapons are so strong. I'm definitely not informed enough about the issue of giant asteroids and the like, however, to support my opinion on that. But it does sound like a pretty horrible way to be wiped out.

 

(1) - “ Congressional Use of Funding Cutoffs Since 1970 Involving U.S. Military Forces and Overseas Deployments ”, http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS20775.pdf

[neggler]

I agree with you sintralin, while the biggest threat with nuclear weapons may be terrorist organizations, how do such organizations get such weapons? Through means of a crooked government. However according to Realism, which states "Anarchy is the permissive cause of war," it wouldn't matter to any one nation about retaliation. There is no set world government to control the nation-states, and when one nation-state feels the other is getting too powerful, then they will begin to stockpile and build up their defense in fear. However, both nation states can only fear so much before they begin to fear the threat of an attack and decide to initiate an attack before they're blindsided. A perfect example of this is the Cold War, and while it did not escalate to the point of nuclear fall out, thank god, it did come very close.

[sintralin]

I agree with you sintralin, while the biggest threat with nuclear weapons may be terrorist organizations, how do such organizations get such weapons? Through means of a crooked government. However according to Realism, which states "Anarchy is the permissive cause of war," it wouldn't matter to any one nation about retaliation. There is no set world government to control the nation-states, and when one nation-state feels the other is getting too powerful, then they will begin to stockpile and build up their defense in fear. However, both nation states can only fear so much before they begin to fear the threat of an attack and decide to initiate an attack before they're blindsided. A perfect example of this is the Cold War, and while it did not escalate to the point of nuclear fall out, thank god, it did come very close.

 

The idea of arms races is true to a point, but the Cold War is kind of empirical proof that countries really only engage in nuclear proliferation, not nuclear war - it was because of the massive buildup of nuclear weapons that leaders became so cautious of the consequences of using a single one. Since both sides had such massive arsenals no first strike could entirely wipe it out, initiating a first strike would be devastating to the opponent but would ensure nuclear retaliation in kind. Which leads to the stand off we basically have today.

 

On the point of terrorist organizations, that's what makes Pakistan and other nuclear-but-unstable countries such a huge risk. I don't believe that in a country like the US or even Russia that terrorists would be able to acquire nuclear weapons, since the safeguards have been improved quite a bit with the arms treaties.

 

Realism doesn't account for non-state actors, which basically means it completely ignores the actions of terrorist groups (what I have essentially deemed to be the biggest threat, at least in this scenario, provided they can actually get a nuke). I don't think initiating a first strike without a guarantee of nonretaliation would be beneficial in any way for the state who initiated conflict - the basic principle is that states will always act in their own interest, and while a world dictated by realism probably wouldn't sign arms reduction treaties (because that's only a relative, not an absolute gain for either country), nation-states are also unlikely to engage in a conflict if they will suffer huge damages.

[-Ryan]

Too lazy to read all these giant posts so i'm just gonna throw in that I really don't beleive the world will end tomorrow. For one thing, this kinda just popped up out of nowhere, and while i'm religous, I don't think the world is ending any time soon by God's hand.

 

Humans totally jacking up the ecosystem is a different matter though.

[hipy_chicky]

In reference to the Mayan stuff -

I went to visit ancient Mayan monuments a few years ago and one of the elder ladies from the community explained to me that in 2012 the Mayan calendar will reset. It's a common misconception that they predicted the worlds end, like someone above stated.

No real opinion on anything else though. Sole thoughts I have towards the worlds end is that I don't believe it will have anything to do with religion.

[Awesome_Paul]

Like Ryan, far too lazy to read all the giant posts. I also don't believe the world will end tomorrow. I think Americans are the only ones who do, but that isn't a good thing.

 

When this all came about that the world will end today. One American set out to make some money. So he made a website saying:

 

"pets don't enter heaven, If you pay me $100 I will personally look after your pet" (in more detail though)

 

Here is the hilarious thing, most people who believed about the end of the world would think "But how could he survive".... They didn't. Instead he had more than 130 people ($13,000) asking him to look after their pet. It just shows you could walk out of the street and say Ice cream will grant you wishes, chances are everyone will panic buy Ice cream.

[-Ryan]

Well... Its 6 a.m. here and i think it's been 6 p.m. somewhere in the world. (Isnt this supposed to start in New Zealand?) Anyone seen any enormous earthquakes on the news? :P

[sintralin]

Too lazy to read all these giant posts so i'm just gonna throw in that I really don't beleive the world will end tomorrow. For one thing, this kinda just popped up out of nowhere, and while i'm religous, I don't think the world is ending any time soon by God's hand.

 

Humans totally jacking up the ecosystem is a different matter though.

 

Haha, sorry for the wall of text. I think we ended up talking more about different possibilities for human extinction rather than the May 21 "Rapture" or the 2012 Doomday, though. Like nuclear terrorism and proliferation. I guess that got a little off topic? Oh well, it was fun :)

[neggler]

Haha yeah maybe we went a little over board in our side debate over whether or not a superpower will cause the destruction of the world! haha! But nonetheless, it is May 21st, 2011 11:42AM here... and nothing has happened yet... though I find it oddly hilarious my cousin is throwing a birthday party for his daughter with a magician at my uber religious aunt and uncle's house! haha!!!

[Kittyn]

I am not a Christian, but I have read plenty of literature and even the Bible itself. it's clearly stated that NO ONE knows the exact time of Christ's second coming except for God the Father himself. I highly doubt that he's going to pick some random human over his Son to share that information with.

 

thus, I think it's ridiculous that all of these Christians are making predictions or believing the ones that do. it's also mentioned that none should waste their time trying to figure the timing out. so.... yeah.

 

and as for the Mayans, I don't really have much to say about that, since I haven't studied much of the subject.

 

oh, and I'll throw in my opinion on Nostradamus. I've come to realize that most of the 'experts' on this subject rely far too heavily on guesswork and interpretation. I can't even begin to consider them credible when they actually say "if you interpret such and such to be this..."

 

well yes, if you rely on interpretation, then you can most definitely fit these anciently-worded and relatively vague prophecies to fit any particular situation.

 

I won't touch the scientific aspect of the world's end, since I don't really know a whole lot about science. but I can already tell you that I'm more likely to believe those theories than anything based on religion.

[Unstream]

In regards to the nuclear holocaust conversation earlier (which I skimmed through, so sorry if this was already mentioned), but I don't think it'd actually be all that likely nowadays, because in order to attack with a nuke, you have to have the means to get the nuke where you want it to go, and then detonate it. That's actually a lot harder than it seems - any plane trying to carry a nuke into the U.S. would be shot down way before it reached its destination. And nukes aren't even the worst case scenario. I mean, sure, a single nuke is stronger than any other bomb, but we've done a lot more in terms of destruction through other means (like the firebombing of Dresden). The only thing nukes have over that is radiation.

 

Anyways, I'm quite skeptical of the asteroid theory. I don't know much of the science around it, but I remember hearing that it was still an extremely small chance that it'll actually hit us.

 

Right now, I think we should be most worried about our environment. While I don't think we're going to see any major effects in our lifetime, if we continue at this rate it's obvious that we will one day destroy ourselves, and even then, there will probably be survivers.

 

Basically, I don't think the world or humanity is going to end any time soon. Definitely not within our lifetimes (Assuming nothing drastic happens. Who knows? Maybe the supervolcano in Yellowstone will decide to blow up tomorrow.)

[neggler]

On the topic of Christ's second coming... Now I'm not religious at all, in fact I am against all forms of organized religion period (please do not try to persuade me, I won't shove my beliefs, or lack thereof, down your throat if you do the same). But isn't Christ's second coming supposed to happen when the Anti-Christ brings his army to the holy city of Islamabad, in order to wage a holy war? Please correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but that's just what I'm told...

 

Also would just like to inform... at 6PM EST (which was the supposed time of the rapture) a 6.1 mag earthquake hit New Zealand and a 5.4 mag earthquake hit Japan... Now like I said I don't believe this hooplah... but pretty creepy stuff

[Kittyn]

On the topic of Christ's second coming... Now I'm not religious at all, in fact I am against all forms of organized religion period (please do not try to persuade me, I won't shove my beliefs, or lack thereof, down your throat if you do the same). But isn't Christ's second coming supposed to happen when the Anti-Christ brings his army to the holy city of Islamabad, in order to wage a holy war? Please correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but that's just what I'm told...

 

Also would just like to inform... at 6PM EST (which was the supposed time of the rapture) a 6.1 mag earthquake hit New Zealand and a 5.4 mag earthquake hit Japan... Now like I said I don't believe this hooplah... but pretty creepy stuff

 

There's a difference between the rapture and the second coming. the rapture is when the Christians are taken to Heaven. this is followed by a 7-year period called the Great Tribulation. during the first half, the Anti-Christ builds his following while various plagues strike the earth and the non-believers. during the last half, the Anti-Christ is assassinated and then returns to life to declare himself as the Messiah. at the end of the Tribulation, Christ returns to earth to overcome the Anti-Christ and set up His Kingdom. that last part is the actual second coming which you described.

[-Ryan]

I am not a Christian, but I have read plenty of literature and even the Bible itself. it's clearly stated that NO ONE knows the exact time of Christ's second coming except for God the Father himself. I highly doubt that he's going to pick some random human over his Son to share that information with.

Thats why I tend to not beleive in end of the world predictions like today or 2012.

 

 

 

 

Btw, 7:53 p.m. here, and I aint dead yet.

[Kittyn]

Thats why I tend to not beleive in end of the world predictions like today or 2012.

 

 

 

 

Btw, 7:53 p.m. here, and I aint dead yet.

 

yep. I'm a huge history fan, so I end up watching the History Channel quite often. I caught the Nostradamus 2012 special and I laughed through the whole thing. that probably sounds a bit childish, but I'm quite the skeptic when it comes to these kind of things. I'm definitely a see-it-to-believe-it person!

 

oh, and it's past midnight where I live and nothing drastic has happened. I think we're good ^_~

[neggler]

haha yeah I wonder how those people feel now! Prolly foolish and whatnot... I wonder how many mass suicides happened yesterday

[Cornflakes]

I read somewhere that the believers would probably go into a deep depression now, as they sold their possessions and otherwise effectively ended their lives.

 

I'm stunned that people actually believed this Camping guy. He predicted, incorrectly, that this was going to happen over a decade ago. Yet people spent thousands of their own dollars advertising this crackpot's prognostications and quit their jobs and uprooted their families and all sorts of other ridiculous things. You know this guy's "church" made $72 million dollars??

 

How can people possibly be so gullible??

[neggler]

seriously! Like what's the point of giving all your possessions away if no one is going to be here to use them

[hipy_chicky]

haha yeah I wonder how those people feel now! Prolly foolish and whatnot... I wonder how many mass suicides happened yesterday

 

I read that the theory caused a mass suicide amongst of group of people in the U.S. when it was first announced. The man that came up with it rounded up a group who actually fell for it and killed themselves shortly after. Ridiculous how easily people can be manipulated.

I don't think anything will ever compare to the way people were behaving in 1999 though.

[neggler]

True that people were acting hysterical back in 1999!

[geoterza]

Well...the day after the "rapture" I tuned into (I think it was) 610 am. Whatever the radio station on all the billboards was.

 

There was no mention of the rapture at all. Just business as usual and no explanation about any of it. I'd been listening to it off and on for a week or so out of curiosity and it was pretty ridiculous that anybody would follow that guy. Since then he's apparently made a revision and has set another date for the "This time I'm right" rapture.

[noisyamie]

Honestly its riduculous that he said that there is even a set date. If he had read the bible correctly then he could have read revlations. Which pretty much gives an outline on whats going to happen before the world ends anyway. None of that has happened yet, so why is he spouting that it's from the bible. People like him wind me up.

 

I am a christian, but honestly it's people like him that give the rest of us a bad name as "doom and gloom scare mongerers"