The New Korean Conflict

[d.Lia]

Wow...support for the "let's throw away the girls in favor of the boys" mentality...

I am shocked and appalled that any rational person could even try to excuse this horror.

It's like saying "Oh, Hitler killed the Jews, and that's bad, but it's understandable because white people are better."

I don't think it's really support, but that some people can understand the reasons people favour boys more than girls. The thing about China (and India as well, I believe) is that this gender bias is deeply entrenched in the society. Us Chinese even have proverbs permeating the preference for boys! (Which, as a female, I am really miffed about.) Also, for the Chinese, the guys are the ones who carry on the family name, and there are some religious rites of passage that only sons can do for their parents.

 

This boys-over-girls mentality should be changing though. China and India have both outlawed sex-selective abortions (but some doctors still find ways to go around that) and it is estimated that 50 million men in China could find themselves brideless. If nothing else, that should kickstart change.

[Cornflakes]

First of all, I agree with you, I don't like the idea of abortion, BUT I am pro-choice. I don't think it's right to have an abortion just because you'd rather have a boy, HOWEVER I do see the value in having a male child when it comes to say running a farm. I think though that the Chinese are undervaluing women in other roles, like say, executives.

As for your second comment, abortion is FAR from the same as the Holocaust, and most Jews ARE white.

 

According to the Germans, the Jews were not white. Germans are white, and Jews are more like rats, not even people, really.

 

And if you ever read "Mein Kampf," Hitler writes about how Jews were sucking up all the resources that the decent white German people should be using. That sounds like the same way the Chinese look at their infant daughters, as mere bothersome beings that are just sucking up all of the resources that could be instead used by the "superior" male children.

 

I didn't compare abortion directly to the Holocaust. What I said was that the mindset of the Nazis and the Chinese are similar.

 

How you could still continue to justify gendercide is absolutely beyond me. It's wrong, period. There's no justification for it. You're basically justifying every other insane, illogical acts brought about by humans. So killing your daughters in favor of sons is understandable, but Hitler was wrong to kill Jews? It's a contradictory argument.

[CAV of Gang Green]

Anyways. Since this doesn't affect me at all I'm not really sure what the US is doing now. All I know is that this:

 

had me rolling on the floor laughing XD

 

You can put it in the quotes thread if you wish.

 

Wow...support for the "let's throw away the girls in favor of the boys" mentality...

I am shocked and appalled that any rational person could even try to excuse this horror.

 

It is inexcusable. But you do have a choice. It's just that some choices are wrong, but people don't notice it.

 

How you could still continue to justify gendercide is absolutely beyond me. It's wrong, period. There's no justification for it. You're basically justifying every other insane, illogical acts brought about by humans. So killing your daughters in favor of sons is understandable, but Hitler was wrong to kill Jews? It's a contradictory argument.

 

Once again, they have a choice. If the Chinese want to only have boys so they can make more profit for farming, then that's their choice. Granted it's wrong, but there's nothing we can do about it. Because at the end of the day, the reason they do it is because of MONEY.

 

And last I checked, the Holocaust killed 12 million people, 6 million of them being Jewish. I doubt that there has been that many abortions.

 

And I think there are countries out there that abort sons in favor for daughters. We are all messed up. But abortion is a different topic. If you wish, I will make this topic. But we are suppose to be discussing the Korean events.

[Unstream]

This has turned into a talk about China xD

Really, I think Cornflakes is making this deal with China more than what it really is. Every country has done bad things, U.S. included (did I mention the Japanese concentration camps?).

 

And it's in no way compared to the Holocaust. Oh, which I'd like to point out is also partly (I'd say at least 50%) the Allies fault. Not exactly America, because Roosevelt was against those reparations, but the rest of the Allies...:whistle:

Anyways, it seems as though this incident has already blown over. Apparently nothing happened. NK does this quite often apparently - it does something outrageous almost just to see how the world will react. What's strange is that usually it's spaced out between a couple of years, but their last attack was in may. The current running hypothesis though, is that Kim Jong Il is about to die and be succeeded by his son, and he's "training" his son to be the new dictator of NK.

[CAV of Gang Green]

Basically, NK are attention grabbers. Give it about a year and a half, and this will happen again.

[Kuroida]

Yeah. Didn't it happen already with them making that show about the nuclear bomb and EVERYONE was like "NO!" and in the end....everyone just forgot about it o.0

 

And I'm sorry but the other topic is really pissing me off. It's not a bloody gendercide. In China it's still illegal to kill off a girl JUST because it's a girl anyways. Stop comparing us to the bloody nazis

[-Ryan]

I have mixed feelings here.

 

South Korea started this, but at the same time they don't have a firecrackered(Censored from what I orginlly wanted to say, obviously) up leader goes around killing civilians. I'm not sure if we should be helping the South and getting involved even if the North really should be dealt with...

 

he whole nuclear thingscares me alot, and I get the feeling thats how this conflict will end. I really don't want anything to do with a war where China is involved or NorthKorea for that matter. I vote we just don't mess with Asia, period. xD

[CAV of Gang Green]

And I'm sorry but the other topic is really pissing me off. It's not a bloody gendercide. In China it's still illegal to kill off a girl JUST because it's a girl anyways. Stop comparing us to the bloody nazis

 

Same here. I'm rather ticked as well. That's kinda why I made the abortion topic. So it can move there and we could discuss this matter here.

 

I vote we just don't mess with Asia, period. xD

 

Yes, but we already messed with a good portion of Asia. I guess it's too late to turn back. :P

[Unstream]

What I find is interesting is that apparently NK just wants to be separated from the rest of the world. It's us going in there and trying to force our ideas of "human rights" and "modernization" and "democracy" on them that makes them hate us, and therefore act antagonistically. What if we just left them alone?

 

Interestingly enough, though this is slightly off-topic, it's for the same reasons that Al Qaeda was formed. Bin Laden wanted separation from the U.S. because the U.S. kept telling them how they should live, and he didn't want to see this westernization take place. Which I kinda agree. I want to be able to travel around the world and experience different things. I've been to China, Japan, and Europe, and in the big cities and "modernized" (considered good) cities, the only differences I notice are language and food. Where's the culture?

 

Of course, NK culture isn't necessarily a good thing anyway :P

 

Is it me or does it seem like a conflict with NK is inevitable? I feel like it's going to happen anyway, regardless. And it kinda needs to happen. What if NK and SK were just one day Korea?

 

Sorry for my ramble-y post. This is just how my thoughts come together in reality x_x

[CAV of Gang Green]

I agree with you there. We shouldn't try to force our lifestyle and government on everyone else. If a country wants to be communist, what are we to say about it? It's not our choice.

 

However, the person/nation shouldn't attack in retaliation in the scale that Al Qaeda did.

 

And yes, war is inevitable. NK was to be the center of attention, and they'll go to war just to get that attention. If we can launch NK to another Galaxy, then they can do what they want. We wouldn't have to worry. But we can't do that, so there's nothing we can really do.

[Kuroida]

lol. That was my mindset when during the whole nuclear bomb thing. I remember asking my dad "isn't NK a country? How come the US always tells them to stop doing things? They're not the boss of everything" And my dad had no answer XD

[jesse_rocket]

The problem with North Korea though, isn't just that they "want to be communist" or "want to be left alone". North Korea is a poverty-stricken dictatorship.

 

If they were living some sort of traditional rural life, and just happened to have some sort of political ethos "we" (in quotes because I'm not American) didn't happen to agree with, and were trying to enforce our way of life onto, that would be one thing, but that's not the case.

 

What North Korea is, is Kim Jong-il's (and his father, before him) nation-sized dollhouse. And Kim Jong-il is by all accounts a rather strange cove.

 

I recently read a book, in which in one section, the author took a trip to North Korea. Of course, the tour party's movements were strictly regulated, down to what direction they were allowed to look in, and they had their phones confiscated when they entered the country. I'm sure that some of it was exaggerated for literary purposes, but dude, the whole place was pretty epic. One thing the writer reported with some amusement was that various lawns and grass verges were filled with people on their hands and knees, cutting the grass with small scissors. Just for the illusion that everyone was very "occupied". And almost everything done there is for the glorification of "The Dear Leader". The tour party were taken to see a giant bronze statue of Kim Il-Sung, where they were allowed the solemn privilege of lining up and placing flowers at the statue's feet. They were allowed to take photos, but only of the whole statue.

When they were taken to the "International Friendship Exhibition", they were lined up outside a room, smartened up by staff, and then let into the room to see a waxwork of Kim Jong-il, to which they were allowed to bow.

 

Everything in North Korea is done for the glorification of Kim Jong-il and Kim Il-Sung, they are literally deified in just about every aspect of North Koreans' daily lives. And that shouldn't be, especially when these gods among men have run a country into the ground as much as it has been.

 

And this would be fine, this would be cute, if there was ANY freedom for anyone in the country besides the class of officials closest to Kim Jong-il himself. I don't even mean freedom in an esoteric sense, in the style of "The American Dream" or anything like that. I mean, just being able to make your own choices. To be able to choose what to do with your time, where to go on vacation, what movies to watch, even what you're allowed to remember. In the final portion of the chapter of the book I'm referring to, the tour party were on a train leaving North Korea to return to China, and some guards came in to check their cameras, and delete any photos that had been taken that they didn't approve of. Also in their carriage were three young girls, who had been given special dispensation to work in the Chinese border town of Dandong as waitresses in a North Korean restaurant for a few years (naturally, with no contact with family during that time). The guards rifled through the girls' belongings, confiscated all their books, found that one of them had a journal with her, ripped out every single page, and handed the empty cover back to her.

 

Aside from the lack of human rights, which aren't just some "western who-are-we-to-say-we're-right" concept, but basic principles, bearing in mind that North Korea as it is now is a culture that is only around 60 years old, is that I just wrote a horrible run-on sentence. I digress. The point is, aside from that, if North Korea really DID want to be left alone, if North Korea really WAS capable of being as self-sufficient as the ideology of Juche that they base themselves on calls for, then maybe THAT would be okay. It if WORKED. But it doesn't! North Korea is reliant on foreign aid for food. Why? Because only a puny amount of land, in the areas surrounding Pyongyang, is actually farmable. Tyhey rely on the help of other nations, but refuse to "make nice", preferring to act as an aggressor, portray its "enemies" as baby-eating savages, and hold its people to ransom rather than admit failure, and that in itself is a dangerous situation for the North Korean people.

 

And that is why the rest of the world is sticking its nose into North Korea's business. Because it's a broken, highly flawed, isolationist authoritarian dictatorship, and history has pretty mush shown us that that sort of thing doesn't work out so good for anyone involved other than those in power.

[Unstream]

Yeah, but what we're doing is obviously not helping at all, and if anything, is only creating more tension between our two countries. My point is we know that NK can't function the way it is, so why not leave it to its own devices; it'll self-destruct eventually. And while we might be neglecting the people stuck in the situation, thinking about this in the long run, that method might get the people of NK freedom faster, because then, progress is always being made, whereas now, Kim Jong Il only feels the need to tighten his grip on the country to "protect" it from westernization.

[FabKiwi06]

I think this is going to be like the Georgia/Russia conflict (In Europe, not down south) was a little while back. It was really tense for a bit, and some bad things happened there, but it ended quietly and without major disruptions to the rest of the world.

 

And someone said before why we can't be like Canada? Well... the US comes to Canada's defense if needed. They know that, and know they have no real military power of their own, so they stay out of it.

 

Edit:: Jesse_Rocket, that book sounds really interesting. Thanks for posting it... I'll have to check it out.

[CAV of Gang Green]

And while we might be neglecting the people stuck in the situation, thinking about this in the long run, that method might get the people of NK freedom faster, because then, progress is always being made, whereas now, Kim Jong Il only feels the need to tighten his grip on the country to "protect" it from westernization.

 

That's a good point. Kim Jong II is basically trying to forcefully defend his dictatorship from threats that don't even exist. It's a lose-lose situation that we can't do anything about. The most we can do is sit back and watch this small nation implode from poor leadership.

[maldoror122]

I have a friend whose family lives very close to the border with NK. Hope everything will be resolved very soon. *sigh*

 

Even my Korean friends aren't sure what would be the best option. I think they mostly agree that SK will be ready to attack back if this escalates any further.

[Tyler.]

I am totally against war in every way possible

and Kim Jong Il is the only guy I'd swim across the Pacific to slap

so I find this stupid

[Makawo]

I too am entirely against it, however when you have superpowers getting involved in something that does not concern them. It angers me even more.

 

This dispute is between the two Koreas, and now we face Russia, America and China getting involved. And with that, the countrys allys will be brought into it, which means my country will have to fight.

 

Im just tired of this nose-digging stuff, let them get on with it, talk it out if that doesnt work, let them fight it out -- but ultimately there is no real reason for anyone else to get involved.

 

America.. *sigh*.

[CAV of Gang Green]

America shouldn't have gotten involved. Heck, there are several times where America has entered something they should've stayed out of. Russia is somewhat the same, but haven't done this as much as America.

 

But I feel as though China did have to get invovled, because NK's attention grabbing was getting out of hand. And unlike America, when China got involved, things STOPPED.

[Unstream]

Are you guys kidding me? This is something that America can't ignore. NK is dangerous. Why? Because they hate the U.S. and they have bombs. Nuclear bombs. And guess what? Countries tend to bomb other countries they hate.

 

Believe it or not, NK is a threat to America. And so America has to keep a close eye on NK.

[-Ryan]

Tyler, that made me laugh. I'm gonna quote that... xD

 

Once again,

I say we just leave Asia the heck alone. -nodnod- North Korea scares me. China scares me more. Japan... Eh, kinda.

[CAV of Gang Green]

Are you guys kidding me? This is something that America can't ignore. NK is dangerous. Why? Because they hate the U.S. and they have bombs. Nuclear bombs. And guess what? Countries tend to bomb other countries they hate.

 

Believe it or not, NK is a threat to America. And so America has to keep a close eye on NK.

 

Yes, keep a close eye. Not bump into NK's business and increase tentions between the two.

 

And didn't you say before that they just want attention, and we all agreed with it?

[Unstream]

Yeah, we were keeping a close eye. And then they did something that alarmed us. Then we acted.

 

We have to pay attention; we have to act. If we don't, it might be that one time when they're actually serious, and then we're gonna be screwed over (well, we'll probably still win in the end, but at a greater cost than it could've been).

[CAV of Gang Green]

Yeah, we were keeping a close eye. And then they did something that alarmed us. Then we acted.

 

And by acting we made tentions worse between us, and we made our reputation worse. Other nations don't think of us as a free country. They think of us as a nation that is abusing the fact that we are the only real superpower in the world.

[Unstream]

CAV, I think your post is basically an assumption and can't be used as a valid argument.

 

Could you reference any articles or other resources?