Gay Rights, Marriage, Civil Unions, Etc.

[Fuzio]

How can you hate someone for not being on your side?

 

Well, in my opinion if you're not going to discuss / debate your side of an issue, you have no place stating your opinion.

 

Running in, stating your opinion, then running away is ignorant. He shouldn't have posted at all if he didn't want to get involved in the debate. This IS a debating forum.

 

He just wanted to get some sort of attention, that's the only reasonable 'explanation' I can find for him even replying.

[Chipmonker]

Well I'm going to state my opinion on this because if it were up to some people - there would be no discussion on any topic.

 

I don't believe any marriages or civil uninions between homosexuals should be allowed to exist at all.

 

Now most of you will blame me for pure ignorance or hatred towards homosexuals, but this isn't the case. I think this way due to the fact that I am religious and believe that it is a sin in God's eyes to have homosexual feelings or commit acts of this nature.

 

Now pause that thought and let me explain

 

I do know and am friends with gay people. I am not best friends with any gays, but I know many through my school and work and I have 2 aunts and a cousin who are gay. But like everyone else I know they, are people. They are human beings - like me. I do not think of them as lower life forms or make abusive comments toward them.

 

I also know that they, through their sexual preferences, sin. But guess what? I sin too. And so do you. Even the :pope: sins. That is what makes us human. And it is our relation to Jesus that saves us from ourselves.

 

So why do I think marriage and civil unions are wrong?

 

Because I believe marriage once was sacred between God, a Man and a Woman and from that relationship stemmed the rights for two to be one. Call me fascist, but I can't get over the fact that the institution is so __ over that the governments start allowing anyone to enter that institution. And not to mention that (to me at least) civil unions are like thumbing noses at God. (And on another note - the whole wall between church and state and political correctness is so ridiculous).

 

But that doesn't mean that I absolutely hate anything about gay marriage. I just don't like the concept of gay marriage and I know that this issue will eventually have to be decided due to the fact that gay couples don't have rights.

 

 

But to be truthful - my view on the entire issue is so complex that I can't simply state that I am completely for or against the whole idea of marriage. Now, I won't die or complain if they do allow gays to get married, but I am still proud of my state for the passing of the DOMA act.

 

And actually the whole reason I'm posting this is because I'm waiting for replys of my PMs.

[Fuzio]

Well, I do have to ask do you even know what Civil Unions are? Because from what you are stating, it seems you believe they are quite similar to marriage when that's really not the case. There is nothing 'religious' about Civil Unions at all.

 

Civil Unions are basically the 'rights' of marriage, without the religious-ness attached. I don't see how it's thumbing your nose at God. The rights of marriage and the religious ceremony of marriage are not connected. Rather people want to realize this or not, Religion has no place in government. People are trying to make religion 'rule the world' and be a reason to make the decisions they do. That is ridiculous.

 

In my book, any person who feels gays do not deserve the same rights as every other American simply because of who they sleep with is prejudice. (; That IS what the term means.

 

(pardon any spelling errors, I do not have my contacts in and can't see ANYTHING)

 

The only life YOUR religious beliefs should dictate is your own. I understand people may not agree with things but I'm pretty sure you don't have to partake in a gay marriage. Which 'text' of the Bible do you feel discusses homosexuality the most, or which do you refer to. Because Divorce is discussed far more than "homosexuality" (if you want to claim it talks about homosexuality at all, which it doesn't).

 

If anyone wants to claim gay marriage is 'wrong' or that it would destroy the "institution', I think they need to fix the huge divorce rate among themselves before turning the "eye" on us.

[Chipmonker]

To be all fair, gay marriage to me is not a vital issue -- (see the last par though). I don't believe the USA will be ruined if Julie marries Linda. (And side note by the way - I'm not trying to anger you even if I come to sound that way. I don't want to offend you. PM me if you think otherwise.) And below Ill try to explain what I was trying to get at in my first post.

 

-----------------------

It is clear that most Americans want heterosexual marriage (and only heterosexual marriage) to maintain its' special place in American society. Traditional marriage is widely seen as a societal stabilizer and the absolute majority of America expresses this idea through the voting box.

 

These voters see Civil Unions as absolutely the same thing as marriage. Except that matrimony is a sacred institution, designed by God and raised to a level of a sacrament by Jesus Christ, while Civil Unions are NOT. There is a fundamental difference there that is very bothersome to some. They don't want it to exsist because they believe it hurts you - (either that or they are just homophobic un-educated masses)

 

But to look at bible verses there is this one from Genesis and of course the ones from Leviticus and Deuteronomy

God created man in his image, in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them, saying, 'Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it'." (Gn 1:27-28)

I futhur looked this up on the internet and I found this quote from a Catholic Bishop; Thomas Tobin

 

The two divinely [in reference to above] established purposes of marriage are obvious - to promote life and love - to be creative and unitive. This life-giving complementarity between the sexes is natural and normative. "Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another."

 

In short, some believe gay marriages and civil unions are in contradict to God's plan, morally wrong and a sad substitue for traditional marriage. They also believe "It's not a matter of civil rights as some have claimed. Freedom is not unbridled license. Authentic human freedom is intrinsically connected to moral truth." (Once again all that gotten from Bishop Thomas Tobin).

-------------------------------------

 

Now I too think that above is a good arguement. However, I have a different problem with Gay Marriage. It is the fact that gay marriage and civil unions are being used by the secular progressive (which you have stated before you are not with "I'm a bit conservative") as a stepping stone to their agendas. And that just drives me nuts and makes me sick too. So I have never been really unafraid to jump on the bandwagon - even though it sounds terrible.

[Fuzio]

Sounds very similar to something Bill O'Rielly would say. Though I do listen to him quite frequently.

 

I hate to break it to you, and I've yet to understand where on earth people get this, but homosexuals do not have an agenda.

 

All these religious conservatives swear we do and it's funny because the term 'homosexual agenda' was never even brought into the public eye until it was uttered from a religious conservatives mouth.

 

Oh, and as a correction. Yes, most Americans do not support same-sex marriage, but DO support Civil Unions. It was widely reported in the '04 and latest mid-term elections. People aren't comfortable with same-sex marriage but they do feel they deserve the same rights. Though many 'religious freaks' would disagree.

 

According to many, we want to rape children, destroy families, have sex in the streets, spit blood in the faces of all who attend church, and turn everyone gay. Those are, in fact, what many claim to be on the homosexual agenda. Sorry, you're wrong.

 

If you're going to preach about Leviticus, let us not forget that you either follow ALL of Lev.'s rules or none at all. So, please don't sit and tell me you've never masturbated before, because that is a directly violation and moral sin according to Leviticus. As is divorce and wearing multi-blended fabric clothing (such as polyester).

 

Yes, some 'nut case liberals' try to use gay marriage as a way to push their own agendas but I strongly believe the 'homosexual agenda' was something created by the religious as a scare tactic to turn the entire nation against gays more than they already are. They claim they know 'oh so much' about homosexuality but you know what, they aren't gay. So how can they claim to know anything about it?

 

Also, if you want to claim God's will is for couples to love each other and 'multiply', then I guess infertile men / women are in the same category as gays and should not be allowed to marry. Am I right? Of course, that's what that argument states. We are not fit to marry because we apparently cannot love one another or 'have children'. Neither can they. (;

 

I could go on for hours about the bible and how misinterpreted it has become. People don't realize the time period in which it was written and that it truly speaks nothing of homosexuality. Simply sex between two people of the same gender. There is a large difference between the two.

 

Now, don't take what I've said as an attack towards you. It's not. Fact is, yes FACT, all Americans deserve the same and equal rights. Anyone who claims gays do not is a bigot. That is a fact. I am not a 2nd class citizen just because I happen to be sexually attracted to someone you disagree with.

 

I would like to hear 1 good valid reason as to why I do not deserve the rights of every other American.

[Chipmonker]

I hate to break it to you, and I've yet to understand where on earth people get this, but homosexuals do not have an agenda.

 

All these religious conservatives swear we do and it's funny because the term 'homosexual agenda' was never even brought into the public eye until it was uttered from a religious conservatives mouth.

I never stated that.

 

Oh, and as a correction. Yes, most Americans do not support same-sex marriage, but DO support Civil Unions. It was widely reported in the '04 and latest mid-term elections. People aren't comfortable with same-sex marriage but they do feel they deserve the same rights. Though many 'religious freaks' would disagree.

I have no idea where you come from. For example in the last midterms 8 states voted on marriage related bills. Arizona voted no; Seven others voted yes. Five out of those seven voted to ban any form of marriage - Civil Unions or otherwise. And that is not to mention the last elections. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2006/pages/res...allot.measures/

 

But I digress and once again point you to the last link I gave you in my other post.

 

According to many, we want to rape children, destroy families, have sex in the streets, spit blood in the faces of all who attend church, and turn everyone gay. Those are, in fact, what many claim to be on the homosexual agenda. Sorry, you're wrong.

That is utterly offensive, wrong and digusting. And not to mention, even though it does exist, absolutely stereotypical of anyone group.

 

If you're going to preach about Leviticus, let us not forget that you either follow ALL of Lev.'s rules or none at all. So, please don't sit and tell me you've never masturbated before, because that is a directly violation and moral sin according to Leviticus. As is divorce and wearing multi-blended fabric clothing (such as polyester).

 

Yes, some 'nut case liberals' try to use gay marriage as a way to push their own agendas but I strongly believe the 'homosexual agenda' was something created by the religious as a scare tactic to turn the entire nation against gays more than they already are. They claim they know 'oh so much' about homosexuality but you know what, they aren't gay. So how can they claim to know anything about it?

 

Also, if you want to claim God's will is for couples to love each other and 'multiply', then I guess infertile men / women are in the same category as gays and should not be allowed to marry. Am I right? Of course, that's what that argument states. We are not fit to marry because we apparently cannot love one another or 'have children'. Neither can they. (;

 

I could go on for hours about the bible and how misinterpreted it has become. People don't realize the time period in which it was written and that it truly speaks nothing of homosexuality. Simply sex between two people of the same gender. There is a large difference between the two.

I really don't want to get into this. In order to understand this you have to have studied the Hebrew language, the Mosaic Code, toeyvah vs. uncleanliness laws, Jewish customs or Jewish vs. Goy/Gentile relations to even to begin to understand. And then you get into the liberal theology vs. conservative theology debate and the Orthodox vs. Liberal Jew debate. Trust me it is absolutely and utterly confusing and I can't even close to being qualified at even to explain it or even debate it. All I can say is you are coming to wrong conclusions and making false claims and you don't even have any experience in the issue. And if you really want to fight it and say "Homosexuality isn't a sin" you should find the nearest respectable theological college and start taking classes.

 

Now, don't take what I've said as an attack towards you. It's not. Fact is, yes FACT, all Americans deserve the same and equal rights. Anyone who claims gays do not is a bigot. That is a fact. I am not a 2nd class citizen just because I happen to be sexually attracted to someone you disagree with.

 

I would like to hear 1 good valid reason as to why I do not deserve the rights of every other American.

 

You have the exact same bloody rights as I do and no one is flippin' violating them. However when you start claiming you have rights in an area that is morally and justly wrong, it doesn't cut it. "Freedom is not unbridled license" to everything one can think of under the sun. And with that I'm not posting in this topic anymore.

[Fuzio]

Never stated it? You actually did mention the 'homosexual agenda'. How is that not stating it?

 

I'm aware of the bans that were passed. My state was one of the first 11 to pass that same amendment banning all forms. But, most people are for equal rights for gays and lesbians, just not marriage.

 

I'm aware that is offensive and wrong, but it has been stated by MANY republicans over the years. That's why I mentioned it.

 

I have studied and spoke with many professors of the old and new testament. I haven't studied all that much, but there are many professors from the University of KY who I've spoken with.

 

I have the same rights as everyone else in this country? LOL. Are you blind? Okay, tell me where I have the right to marry who I want. Tell me where do I have the right to see the person I love in the hospital. Tell me where do I have the right to adopt a child. Need I go any further?

 

Morally and justly wrong? That's an opinion. Explain to me how having a sexual attraction towards someone of the same sex (something you cannot control) makes you morally wrong?

 

Just because people do things you don't like or agree with does not give you the right to strip them of their rights as an American.

[Empress Keiko]

I agree with Fuzio. Many gays are very kind. I dont see why they should not get the same treatment as others. I think that gays are just normal people. Everyone is programmed in a way. Who says that straight people arent programmed wrong? I am too young to know who I like. I dislike many girls and many boys in my grade. does thatmean I shouldnt have rights? Becuase I'm individual??? It makes no sense. Let say goths are weird and should be strippedof their rights? They are people too. Just programmed in a certain way.

[Mira]

Yeah. But gays aren't bad people (at least most of them) so why should they get (is it "treaten" or "treated?") worse.

[Empress Keiko]

did I say that they should be treated worse? I'm sorry, I meant that they should be treated equally...maybe I didnt explain that...

[Mira]

Well you didn't say that. I mean with people calling something "gay" as an insult must bug them. I know it bugs me even though I'm straight.

[Empress Keiko]

i dont know about that...I cant say because Im not gay. They know they're gay. Being called it in the open, has to be annoying. I didnt adress calling them gay...so...yea. I dislike calling people what they are in a bad way. Just see them for their other qualities, such as kind.

[Ellie_Penguin]

Just like straight people, there are some homosexuals that are bad, but I've seen a lot that are good people. So I don't think it's fair to generalize. There is good and evil everywhere!

[Empress Keiko]

of course! I mean, everyone is equal. Being gay doesnt mean your not evil. but its good not to make every gay seem bad

[Mira]

Just like straight people, there are some homosexuals that are bad, but I've seen a lot that are good people. So I don't think it's fair to generalize. There is good and evil everywhere!

I never said that though.

[Ellie_Penguin]

I never said that though.

 

Oh I know, that was just something I wanted to add up in general XD.