Gay Rights, Marriage, Civil Unions, Etc.

[Fuzio]

I hope we can keep this peaceful and mature, though I know many people on these boards have differing opinions, that does not mean we need to bash, harass or insult anyone. Act like adults, even if you're not.

 

I myself am 21 years old and a gay male. At a young age, approx 5th grade, I realized that I was not like everyone else because I wasn't interested in girls like all my other friends, but boys. Of course, at that age I wasn't aware of what that meant. I 'came out' at the age of 15 and I live in a decent sized town in central Kentucky, you can imagine I was met with much opposition.

 

I do understand people don't understand homosexuality and believe the Bible has a stance against homosexuality, though it does not. I know, many of you were raised to believe that it does, but it does not.

 

The main biblical text used to claim the Bible's stance on homosexuality is the one regarding to a man lying with another man as he would a woman. Now, if you look at it in the terms in which it was written they are speaking clearly in a sexual manner, not in the manner of a relationship or love. So, the Bible does talk about a man engaging in a sexual act with another man. This still is not talking about homosexuality, simply sex. If it were to speak about homosexuality, it would also mention women, would it not? If you still believe it does speak of homosexuality, then does it not apply to women? Women are allowed to engage in sexual acts with other women but not men with men? Doesn't make much sense if you think about it.

 

Leviticus seems to be a popular part of the Bible those opposed to homosexuality mention. If you've read Leviticus and know it's "rules" you are aware that you either follow all of it's rules (I believe in the hundreds) or none of them. So, you can't just pick and choose which one's you will support and which you will not. You can mention the supposed 'gay related' text from Leviticus but you cannot forget the text about wearing multi-blended fabrics (such as polyester) or masturbation. They are equally as "wrong" as homosexuality. (if you interpret it the way I'm speaking.)

 

Now, as a gay male I do understand why people are against homosexual marriage. Marriage is a religious ceremony which people partake in with those they love and traditionally it is between one man and one woman. In my opinion, we should amend Civil Unions to be parallel to marriages (in rights) for homosexual couples. That 'should' please everyone; those opposed because it is not marriage but also gives us, as Americans, the rights we are supposed to have as Americans and those supporting because it gives us the rights we are fighting to earn, which should be given to us as Americans. Sadly, there are still some who are not happy with that point of view.

 

What upsets me is when people mention marrying a goat or your sister or multiple people at once. How that has anything to do with homosexuality, I will never understand.

 

That's just a small basic viewpoint on some matters. I'm curious to see the opinions of others.

Again, please do not resort to name-calling, insults or harassment. It is childish and if you are mature on any level, you can disagree with someone and not hate them for it.

[julie_kofoed1980]

I support you Fuzio

 

Here in Denmark the gay community is well liked (well we're not as religious as americans, so that might have something to do with it).

 

Denmark was also the first country in the WORLD to approve civil unions (marriage at the town hall), this was more than 15 years ago.

 

Right now the gay community in Denmark is working for their rights to have equal adoption rights, and lesbians to have insemination. They are also working on church marriages.

[Samuel]

In addition to Fuzio's disclaimer, anyone making any homophobic comments will be promptly banned from the forums :)

 

I'm all up for homosexuality. Although not gay myself, it's perfectly fine for anyone to be with whoever they want to be. You get these right idiots at school though, so I commend you for coming out at 15; in the UK, coming out at 15 is torture - one boy I know has just come out, and he's been experiancing the biggest amount of rubbish and tormet I've seen.

 

It's disgraceful in my view that going into 2007, most US states have not ratified some sort of union for gay couples. The UK introduced it last year, and it's good that finally couples can be legally recognised with regards to tax, legal matters and just as being partners.

 

I'm no Christian - christened, yes, but more agnostic than anything - but I'm aware of the Bible and the stupid things associated with it. Christians seem to pick and choose what they want to believe from it, and the Roman Catholic Church is hypocritical in what it will allow and how it interprets the Bible. It takes what it wants, and uses other stories to override the one's it doesnt.

 

With adoption, there is no real reason why that shouldnt go ahead - sure, the kid might get some rubbish at school ("You got two daddies/mummies"), but it wouldnt affect them too bad.

 

It's high time gay people have the same right as heterosexual couples, fo shizzle.

[Fuzio]

I do believe the topic of adoption, gay parenting and insemination will be hot topics here soon in America due to puppyblew Cheney's daughter becoming pregnant with her partner.

 

Churches, in my opinion, have the right to deny performing the ceremony if they want. That's just how I feel.

 

I'm somewhat of a conservative democrat (surprising to most people, a lot assume all gays are liberals).

 

 

Yes, coming out at the early age was torture to say the least. For those of you not in the US, Kentucky is in the south and highly known as a 'religious redneck state'. I have had my brand new car ('05 Corolla S) egged twice causing $700 in damages, bricks thrown through my window, received death threats to me and my family and have been chased down by a truck full of rednecks with bats and 2x4's simply for being gay.

 

On a note of gay parenting, I have an ex whose mother is a lesbian and he received no 'flack' about it. No one really cared or harassed him about it. It really doesn't make sense. A lot of the people who harassed me didn't harass my other gay friends (though I was the first to ever come out at my high school, that could play a role).

[Ellie_Penguin]

I respect homosexuals. I mean, as long as they don't try to change me in any way. And you are right about the Bible! In the Catholic bible it says that being homosexual is NOT a sin. What is a sin is involving in "acts" and when you try to change someone into homosexuality. A lot of people think Catholics are against homosexuals, but I think they confuse us with Christians. They have another belief about homosexuals. If you go to church or go to your Sacraments classes (for Communion, Confirmation, etc) they do talk about those things, and even in Catholic schools. So I thought bashing wasn't allowed? Catholics are not hypocrites, well like in every religion a lot of people are. But you would have to go to the classes and church to understand what we belief in and how we read the bible. As for me, I don't mind homosexuals, but I don't really agree with the whole marriage and adopt children issues. I can't judge anyone nor those who are born with it. I'm mostly against the ones who "try" to be (you know the ones who just do it for fun. I just think it changes the meaning). Where I live, you don't see many homosexuals, so when I do see a couple, it makes me feel weird. But I guess I'll get used to it.

[Fuzio]

I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean by 'change me in any way'.

 

As I said before, I understand why people would be against same-sex marriage but in the US, every citizen should have equal rights. We should at least have that, even if they be Civil Unions (though they would need to be amended first to be parallel in rights to marriage)

 

As for adoption, I see no issue with it. It's been proven that gay parents are just as capable as raising children as straight parents. A lot of people have tried saying 'gay parents will raise their children to be gay'. Right, because gay parents raise gay kids and straight parents raise straight kids.

People want to say 'Well, children need a mother and a father'; what about single parents? Should they not adopt either?

(this isn't a remark towards you Silent Penguin, just a general statement)

[Ellie_Penguin]

I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean by 'change me in any way'.

 

As I said before, I understand why people would be against same-sex marriage but in the US, every citizen should have equal rights. We should at least have that, even if they be Civil Unions (though they would need to be amended first to be parallel in rights to marriage)

 

As for adoption, I see no issue with it. It's been proven that gay parents are just as capable as raising children as straight parents. A lot of people have tried saying 'gay parents will raise their children to be gay'. Right, because gay parents raise gay kids and straight parents raise straight kids.

People want to say 'Well, children need a mother and a father'; what about single parents? Should they not adopt either?

(this isn't a remark towards you Silent Penguin, just a general statement)

 

I meant, some homosexuals try to change a straight person into a homosexual. I haven't seen so many cases like these, but I know some of them do try to change you.

[Samuel]

....I'm sure they don't. Maybe they might come onto someone who's straight, but manipulatively changing? I've never heard of a case like that, to be honest.

[Fuzio]

I've never met anyone who has tried to 'change' anyone. That is a common mis-belief by a lot of people that gays want to turn others gay. I'm not quite sure where you heard / learned that but it's far from the truth. If there are people out there like that, they certainly aren't the majority if the gay community.

 

You can't just 'change' someone sexuality, gay or straight. No one is born with a sexuality, it's developed by the age of 9 I do believe. Maybe earlier than that, I forget. Homosexuality is linked to the paternal (father) genetic line, but not always a deciding factor.

 

I will admit some gay people may 'hit on' straight people, but that doesn't mean they are trying to change them. To be honest, we have this thing we call 'gaydar' (or dar) in which we believe we can spot fellow homosexuals. Hardly true but a lot of the time it works. Sometimes you're wrong and end up hitting on someone who is straight. It can be very confusing and embarrassing to both people.

[Ellie_Penguin]

I've heard of some in South America, but like you said they're just minority.

[julie_kofoed1980]

I should think the problem would be bigger with straight people trying to change the gay people...

[.Dan.]

The gay community in India apparently are suppressed due to the whole caste system enforced there.

I met a lesbian one night on Runescape, and most of her family were sadly against her sexuality,although some of her family still loved her for who she was. It's amazing that such a big deal can be made out of such a small decision.Sure,it's weird and all but people have the right to choose their own choices,don't they?

 

PS, Borat the movie kinda slanders the Gay community of America. Anyone seen the movie and agree with this?

[WEVIL]

PS, Borat the movie kinda slanders the Gay community of America. Anyone seen the movie and agree with this?

 

Um, obviously, and it slanders almsot everything in America which is supposed to make it funny but not the point.

 

I have nothing against gay people. It's their right, I respect that. HOWEVER, I do not support gay marriage or civil unions. I am definetley not a religious man and am atheist. However, I believe that gays marry in order to adopt a child thereafter. YES, a child under gay parents CAN function as well as a child with heterosecual parents. HOWEVER, is this always the case? I think not. Admit, this world is not perfect. Not everyone in America looks at everyone equally. Racial discrimination is said to have been dissolved a long time ago... But I see plenty of students and even adults constantly making fun of, looking down upon Blacks, Asians, Indians, and other races. I am Asian myself and I have experienced this first hand.

 

Same applies for children with gay parents. People don't look at them the same way or treat them the same way. A child who has parents that are gay although are accepted by a few, are rejected by many. I believe that chances are that a child will be able to interact more in his childhood if he is raised by heterosexual parents in stead of gay ones therefore wish to make gay marriage illegal.

 

I know I am a minority here and that I have very few supporters but I firmly believe in this view. Disagree with my view? Say why instead of flaming me like some immature 5 year old child and I will be happy to oblige you.

[Mira]

I agree that with Fuzio. Plus, you can't choose if you're gay or not. Even though I'm straight. I might find out that I'm bisexual later in life. I hate it when people call something "gay" as an insult. Plus I hate those men that are always like "I'm so manly. Let's wrestle. I'm a man so I can eat this hot hot hot sauce." and things like that. I don't know how people are attracted to that. To me it just makes them look stupid. I also hate when people use the term (insert ord here that means "cigarette" in the UK). I think it's natural to be gay. I hate when people say something that's supposed to be funny having to do with a gay couple or something and I have to explain that it's the exact same thing as a man with a woman, but the man is a woman or the woman is the man. But one thing that kind of annoys me is some of the people that go on all these gay marches and make a big deal out of it. It makes me sad because when you make a friend or something, gay or straight, it should just come along in a conversation or something instead of just saying "Hi, my name is Frank, and I'm gay." But that's the only thing that I don't like with SOME gays. But also gays can be a real help. They understand women better. Also I have this friend, who is kind of a pervert, lol, he can talk to gays about sexual things that he can't talk to ladies about. XD But he's a cool guy.

[Fuzio]

The fact that your statement claims all gays want to marry simply to adopt children is childish within itself.

 

Wanting to adopt children is hardly the reason why gays want the same rights as every other American (aside from the fact that it is supposed to be granted to us via the Constitution; all Americans are to be treated equal)

 

I don't want children and I know PLENTY of gay couples who don't either. Some may want to adopt or have children but there are over 1,400 rights that come with marriage; that is what we want. Call it what you want, I don't care if it's marriage or a civil union, I just want the rights which are given to every other American. I am not a 2nd class citizen, so I should not be treated like one.

 

Children will face being made fun of for any and every aspect of their life, their parents and etc.

 

I would also like to point out that it's not always the case that heterosexual parents can affectively raise their children. So I see no basis to your argument.

 

Just sounds like you have an incorrect view as to why gays want the rights that come with marriage and you feel heterosexual parents are perfect (though I assume you will admit they aren't, but apparently their 'screw ups' are not as bad as homosexual parents') If you didn't intend to say that, you should re-word your last statement.

[Mira]

Yeah, I knew these twins when I was a preteen, they were my friends, they had a dad but at a young age their mom divorsed him and she is married to a woman, and everyone knew that, and they were some of the most popularest people in the school. And I assure you, everyone knew their parents were lesbians.

[WEVIL]

The fact that your statement claims all gays want to marry simply to adopt children is childish within itself.

 

Wanting to adopt children is hardly the reason why gays want the same rights as every other American (aside from the fact that it is supposed to be granted to us via the Constitution; all Americans are to be treated equal)

 

I don't want children and I know PLENTY of gay couples who don't either. Some may want to adopt or have children but there are over 1,400 rights that come with marriage; that is what we want. Call it what you want, I don't care if it's marriage or a civil union, I just want the rights which are given to every other American. I am not a 2nd class citizen, so I should not be treated like one.

 

Children will face being made fun of for any and every aspect of their life, their parents and etc.

 

I would also like to point out that it's not always the case that heterosexual parents can affectively raise their children. So I see no basis to your argument.

 

Just sounds like you have an incorrect view as to why gays want the rights that come with marriage and you feel heterosexual parents are perfect (though I assume you will admit they aren't, but apparently their 'screw ups' are not as bad as homosexual parents') If you didn't intend to say that, you should re-word your last statement.

 

Woa now, whatever happened to respecting a point of view buddy? I never said heterosexual parents are perfect. Sorry if I forgot to mention that but I did recall mentioning that YES hmosexual chidlren can live normal lives and the same lives as children under heterosexual parents. Ill just respond to all your paragraphs in a little list.

 

You and your PLENTY of gay couples does not count as the majority of America. There are gay couples in America who marry for the right of adopting whic his one of the 1400 rights that come with marriage. Also, because I am such an uninformed fool as you say, I don't know any of these 1400 rights that come with marriage. Can you state a few for me and cite your source for this number?

 

Yes Children will face being made fun of all their life. But, trying to ignore that as nothing and that it is just a regular part of life can be a mistake. You see children turning suicidal all the times these days due to pressure from other kids. Some go hurt other people. Columbine and that recent shooting in that other school are examples. I am not saying that every kid under a gay parent would go shoot people in his school but do you know how much a child can take, how sensitive he might be? Being made fun of constantly in life is not something that is to be overlooked as a mere fact of life. Weve made that mistake before and other children paid for it. How do you know if that extra pressure from having homosexual parents will be the final push the child needs to go over the edge?

 

For your whole heterosexual parents arent perfect deal, look at first paragraph because I totally agree with you (like you said I would) because I never said they were. But you can't say that the majority of heterosexual parents beat their children or abuse them or whatnot and are terrible parents. That is what your argument is based on; that heterosexual parents abuse their child and so are worse parents than gay parents. NOT TRUE. And also, couldn't gay parents perform the same rash actions? Just because they are gay doesn't mean they cant make the same mistakes. And that still in no way ruins the basis of my argument because of course not all heterosexual parents are perfect and neither are homosexual parents.

 

My only proposal is that you state for the uneducated likes of me about some of the 1400 rights you recieve from marriage. Thanks.

 

PS I love this debate, so no hard feelings k?

[Fuzio]

I respect your point of view but parts of it was incorrect. When you show me a source that says the majority of the gay community only want to marry in order to adopt children, I will then acknowledge that statement. I, for one, find it ridiculous. And I never called you an uninformed fool, you're twisting what I said.

 

What you're trying to say is that kids raised by heterosexual parents are harassed enough as is and having gay parents would push them over the edge. If that's not what you're saying, you ARE saying that having gay parents would be just enough to possibly damage a child.

You also say gay parents are just as capable of doing 'rash' things as straight parents, which is true. But you're trying to argue gay parents are 'worse' than straight parents but you're also saying they're the same. Make up your mind. (; Either they can equally raise children the same or they can't.

 

Neither are perfect, which is the point I was making. They're both the same, hardly any difference thus they should be allowed to adopt / have children.

 

About the rights which come along with marriage (though I could be wrong on the exact number, I could swear it was 1,400) here are just a few rights which are granted to a married couple;

 

Tax Benefits

 

* Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.

* Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

 

Estate Planning Benefits

 

* Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.

* Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.

* Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.

* Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

 

Government Benefits

 

* Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.

* Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.

* Receiving public assistance benefits.

 

Employment Benefits

 

* Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.

* Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.

* Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.

* Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

 

Medical Benefits

 

* Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.

* Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

 

Death Benefits

 

* Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.

* Making burial or other final arrangements.

 

Family Benefits

 

* Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.

* Applying for joint foster care rights.

* Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.

* Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

 

Housing Benefits

 

* Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."

* Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

 

Consumer Benefits

 

* Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.

* Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.

* Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

 

Other Legal Benefits and Protections

 

* Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).

* Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).

* Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.

* Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.

* Obtaining domestic violence protection orders.

* Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.

* Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

[Samuel]

I dunno if it's just me who's getting a little confused in this debate, but there does seem to be some odd comments thrown across. Anyway.

 

If your point was that a gay couple shouldn't be allowed to adopt kids because they could abuse, and accepting that hetero couples could to, then surely kids shouldn't be allowed to anyone?! You cant say "Hmm, straight couples can have kids because we need more kids. Yeah, they might abuse, but we'll take our chances" and then to a gay couple, reject them because they could abuse also; it's justb a cover-up response to the fact that many believe that it isn't natural to be gay. Well hold up folks, it isnt natural to use animals as tests, but we still do it because we need to. But not giving a gay couple rights because they're gay is just stupid. They probably have a stronger relationship than straight couples anyway, because they've got the discrimination to deal with that will surely bring them closer together.

 

Ultimately, children do need to be educated a lot, lot more. They need to know from a very early age that just because everyone else has a mum and dad, and someone has two dads and no mum, that they must be "wrong". It could be that these two are high up in the police force, much more respectable than a measly supermarket shelf-stacker, and giving a lot more to the community - but that wouldn't matter to these homophobes. They need to be taught, and it should of started waay back, that just like being racist, being homophobic is just as bad.

 

Sure, an adopted kid is likely to get some jip from other kids. But, if we educate those kids, then we're on the road to complete acceptance.

 

(I've kinda drifted from what I was gonna say, but you get the idea. :yes:)

[Ellie_Penguin]

hmm I seriously doubt the government will invest money on educating kids about homosexual parents.

[moonbeam8680]

Im going to reply, im not sure why because this seems to always be one of the most heated discussions i ever read. I agree that everyone should have the same rights. I dont agree that every one should be married. But a cival union or domestic partnership with the same rights that Fuzio stated should be for everyone. I mean if a straight couples partner ends up in ICU then the other one can go visit. If a gay couples partner ends up there, they cant because they are not "family". It doesnt matter if for the past 10 years they have been living together, because there are no legal papers. As far as the adoption thing goes, i think they should be able to adopt as long as they meet the same requirements as straight families. I dont think they would be doing any more harm to the child then by the child not even having a family to love them and having to spend holidays and such with a adoption agency. That is just the way i feel. I think everyone needs a home and people to love them. I dont think it matters what there sexual preference is.

[Absolute]

Oh snap I'm running far far away from this board. I don't feel like getting involved in this argument again, everybody who was around for round 1 knows that I'm against it, and don't bother asking me why because I will be far far away from this board and will most likely not see any of what you people say so have fun and don't kill each other this time! *dashes out of the room and heads for the hills*

[Mira]

Oh snap I'm running far far away from this board. I don't feel like getting involved in this argument again, everybody who was around for round 1 knows that I'm against it, and don't bother asking me why because I will be far far away from this board and will most likely not see any of what you people say so have fun and don't kill each other this time! *dashes out of the room and heads for the hills*

You're against it so I hate you.

[Ellie_Penguin]

You're against it so I hate you.

 

How can you hate someone for not being on your side?

[Mira]

How can you hate someone for not being on your side?

I was just playing around.