Chu

You're completely right, CAV. I've seen the same thing. I still can't come to agree with the plaintiffs though. There should be more self restraint and discipline on the part of families that purchase McDonalds if they're going to complain about it.

For me, Unstream hit the nail on the head here:

But the aim isn't to make kids fat, the aim is to make a profit.

And Cornflakes here:

It's ludicrous. Sure, anti-trust laws are a good idea, don't get me wrong...but every time a company starts making some serious cash, there's always some jealous hater around to start squawking.

Those two quotes sum up my opinion on many debates, actually. XD

-__- It seems like all parents are trying to blame the world for their mistakes in raising their kids these days. I'm sorry but I'm so tired of people blaming fast food chains for their weight problems. Obesity is caused by the sedentary lifestyles that most people in our nation have. The unhealthy food certainly doesn't help the matter, but they're mixing up the cause and the result here.

But one thing that we all have to realize is that it's MUCH easier to blame a faceless company than it is to blame ourselves. Why take responsibility when we can scapegoat someone (or some group) instead?

Laziness laziness laziness. That's what it all boils down to, no matter where we take this debate. Parents are too lazy to cook so they opt for fast food. They're too lazy to use proper parenting (which takes a lot of work) so they consistently go back to fast food. They're too lazy to take responsibility so they blame the company. They're too lazy to take initiative to lose weight (or get their kids to lose weight) so they wallow in their own fat.

The toys? Of course they're a marketing technique - I think that's pretty obvious to everyone. But to go to the extent of saying that McDonalds intentionally creates them to make kids eat unhealthy food goes a bit too far.

@Cornflakes: Addressing the issue of parents never saying no: There are other reasons for that. My mom spoils the hell out of us because she grew up very poorly - rape, abuse, foster homes, the whole nine. As she puts it, "I want to give you all the life that I never had. Enjoy your childhood while you're still a kid." While commendable, at least in theory, it boils down to bad parenting in practice, and sadly, this is what many parents want to do. My theory is that this trend started with the baby boomers who grew up with nothing. Once the economy got better and they had kids, they figured that they should give their kids everything in the world to compensate for their own missed childhoods. This mentality was passed down through generations because it's a very romantic ideal to grant your children their lazy care-free days of youth, but when you look back on it, it only leads to infantilization, which I'd be happy to discuss in another topic.

I'm pro-letting-bubbles-go and pro-choice as well. xP Interesting connection there, Link. I never thought of that.

First off, I think this is very different from abortion, since the scenario guarantees a happy life, which wouldn't be the case in an abortion scenario.

 

[...]

 

But humans also have a big impact on the world. Oil spills, deforestation, wonderful things like that, all impact the world.

You'd be surprised at how many people seem to think otherwise. x_x *has had enough abortion debates to last a lifetime*

And I'd actually have to disagree with you on that statement. You see, in terms of how long the Earth has been around, and will most likely stay around, we humans are really nothing more than a cold. We feel like we can make such a huge impact on the universe and on our planet, but the only reason that it seems that way is because we're so small and insignificant that the only thing that we can destroy is ourselves. If we go out with a literal bang, the Earth can and will recover easily, eventually leaving no trace of our existence at all. Oil spills and deforestation can fix themselves over time. It will seem like an eternity to us, but not the Earth.

Neopets is a business though, and I see nothing wrong with them using those practices. Nothing is unfair or shady as far as I can see. When I came back to Neo from a long hiatus, I didn't even notice the NC updates until a user mentioned them, so I think that that goes to say that they can easily be ignored.

And the concept of working hard for your items/currency is still in tact - even if a user buys NC, they worked hard for that real-life money that they just forked over. Yes, the concept is a tad bit skewed with that group of children who merely convince their parents to spend money on the site, but honestly, that's on the parents, not TNT. For every other child on the site, they work just as hard for their items as a child of the past would have.

And quickly regarding your example, Christine M, you don't need that item to do anything on-site, and you can't blame TNT for the price of it. TNT doesn't set that - the users do through supply and demand. And I don't mean this to be insulting or rude, but the impression that you're making is, "It's not fair because otherwise I'd be 2mil richer!" I'm not going to hold that over your head, but it seemed like something that I should point out.

I actually find how TNT handles themselves quite fair and commendable. I'd be the last person to white knight them and blindly bow down, but they handle themselves just as a business should. They're not wishy-washy like some other popular sites. I've never spent any money on this site, yet I can still enjoy it just as I did as a kid. That said, if others are complaining that it's not the same as when they used to play, I'd like to ask why. Exactly what did this change for anyone if they choose not to buy NC?

@Ro: Oh, I understand. XD Sorry, I wasn't sure if the "one more word" was a threat or something. Thanks.

@Featherstar: Usefulness to any degree is entirely based on perception, honestly. With what you just said in mind, I'd probably still let them go because it would not only serve me by no longer wasting "my" space, but it would also serve the bubbles by providing them their lives. I don't much care for the latter, but it's a nice thing to happen regardless.

I don't really see the connection between fighting for your country and drinking alcohol. I see your point, but not the connection. It strikes me as an entirely different discussion.

And I'd like to see statistics on the relation between age and chances of substance abuse, admittedly, mainly out of curiosity.

I thought that an alien was officially defined as a being that doesn't belong in its surrounding environment. That being said, you can't really define what's an alien and what isn't because there isn't a unanimous definition of environment. That could simply be defined as the city, country, galaxy, or even dimension, but it's none of these. It would have to be more of an opinion than a definition, which would leave the answer of this question entirely up to one's perception.

But of course if we were to twist the debate into that type of situation, we couldn't effectively debate anything. XD I just figured that it was an interesting point to ponder.

Oh, goodness, I'm not attacking anyone. If I were I'd be name-calling and whatnot, but I can't help it if people are overly sensitive, much less apologize for it. All I'm saying now is that there's no point in complaining about something if you don't intend to do anything. (Make a gallery, write a story, show off your account, etc.) I actually have no personal feelings attached to this subject at all. XD The only thing that bothers me is the general act of, as I said before, complaining without taking action.

But there's really not much left for me to say, and I don't intend on going in circles anymore. If another point is brought up then I'd be happy to debate it. If not, then I'm done with the back-and-forth.

Nice, Chu. I like unabashed utility. One more word.

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

EDIT: Oh, if you're referring to my "silly" comment, that's not meant as a personal attack against anyone. I actually admire romantics. XD I'm too cynical for that type of thinking, so a romantic's mind is "silly" to me because I don't see it as logical or perceptive. It's definitely imaginative though.

But if it's not that then I'm totally lost by your comment.

@Featherstar: Hm, that's an interesting point. I guess you've got me on that one.

I wonder though, what would they be doing in that second of life? What usefulness would they serve? I think that I'd still hold that mindset because I still couldn't see what good they would be doing for me. I'm rather selfish and intolerant like that.

I don't see why the government should have any right to dictate what its citizens consume. I'm personally strictly against the use of any alcohol, but I only apply that to myself. What others do is completely up to them - it's their decision, or sometimes mistake, to make.

I'd let them go, but not because of a romanticized view on life or anything. That jar is taking up space, and it could be used for something else. Better to kill off the bubbles and use the jar for something else, rather than to just let them sit there and waste space.

Yeah, I'm not one for the whole "beauty of life" concept. ;) It's pretty silly if you ask me, because there's so much more to it than that. You can't do anything useful by living for just one second, let alone process anything well enough to feel happiness as you suggested. Those creatures would be a pathetic waste of space, and they would be forgotten shortly after anyway.

One person gets chosen, and the others do not. That's the name of the game, folks. :guiltysmiley:

This. Competitions such as this ALWAYS feel unfair to the losers. Sorry to put it that way, but that's just how it is.

And another thing I'd like to say about html/css skills: It's NOT about skills in either of those fields, or any others. Why does getting a premade petpage, or even requesting one, seem so impossible to you people? The quality of a page (because of coding, artwork, stories, etc.) does not constitute responsibility, but rather dedication. It takes WORK to make a sizable page, and owners realize this. There's no way for them to look at responsibility because that could be glossed over by an applicant feeding their pets for the first time in two years. Instead, owners look for the next best thing, which of course WOULD be the amount of effort put into it. And they figure that the more someone wants a pet, the more they would try.

Coding too difficult? Impossible? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, even though I personally think that anyone could learn basic html/css. Regardless, why not make an elaborate story? Build a gallery? Tell the owner how you plan to customize the pet? Rather than complaining and doing nothing to help yourself, DO SOMETHING. No one can pity a person who just sits there and complains without taking any steps to help themselves.

I'd also like to reiterate that petpage applications are never required for adopting pets. In fact, the owners are strictly prohibited from requiring ANYTHING of the applicants. You could send the application in via neomail, or even on a bland page if it's too long. Intricate petpage applications are not the only way to go.

Oh, please. The recession is a terrible cop-out. People need to stop blowing it out of proportion and realize that it's not stretching your pocketbooks too far. My single mother is raising three children on tips at work, and we're okay. It takes good management but it'll work. >_> I'm so tired of hearing that excuse.

But that's another subject. TNT can't help that people don't have money to spend, or simply won't spend it. They're not selfish merely for saying "Hey, you can buy this if you want it."

Set your personal vendettas aside and look at it rationally: What would be a fairer way to do it? First come first serve? Bribery? It only feels unfair because you (not directly) got rejected, but that doesn't mean that it's truly unfair. I've been rejected after putting hours into applications too, but when I looked at it after setting my hurt feelings aside, I realized that the other people not only worked MUCH HARDER than I did, but they wanted the pet and appreciated it more. That's fair in my eyes.

And let me refer to the teacher situation again: Just because one person made an unfair decision, it doesn't mean that they all do. You can't hold grudges against an entire idea because of one instance, or even a few. THAT'S not fair.

A Neopet is not a puppy. XD It's a status symbol, largely, that you have to work for. It's a toy. Trade-crazed or not, it's a bunch of pixels. Graphics and coding skills don't merit responsibility to the owners, but rather, dedication. It takes a long time to make a good layout, much less one with personal graphics and a story. That time spent shows dedication that the owner expects to be used on the pet itself when it's adopted off.

Hannah B. Many people here are against the ideas in general because they've had bad personal experiences with petpage application rejections. While I understand what you're saying, you're missing the point that it's not right to hate an entire idea because of a single instance.

I personally don't care what people do - it's not my right to tell them that. My issue is that people are being stubborn and biased about it.

Would you please explain exactly how it isn't fair though? I still can't understand that.

What's not fair about allowing especially artistic people to hone their skills in this competition? Everyone may use their skills respectively to wow the owner - no one is told that they can't do something because it's more eye-catching than something else. If the owner has too short of an attention span or too little consideration to realize that a person with an entire gallery of Krawk-related items (I use this as an example purely out of convenience) deserves a pet more than a single spiffied up petpage, then that's too bad, but it's not right to say that all instances of allowing petpages are unfair because of it. It's just that single instance that is unfair. Do you understand? That's like saying that all teachers who give tests are unfair because one decided to give their favorite student five extra points.

I understand that this may feel unfair to people that aren't artistic (or those with little time) because they feel that their application is better than all of the others. That's natural. However, you have to look at the situation from a non-biased point of view: An application that has an entire story, fanart, and a custom-designed page for the pet that they're adopting off is seen as not only eye-catching and creative, but considerate and contemplative. The think, "Wow, this person really thought about who my pet is - not what he/she is. They must really want him/her."

Apparently there's the mention of aliens in the bible, but I can't tell you first-hand. My boyfriend told me that today.

As you can tell from that sentence alone, I'm not a respectable person to debate this subject with. All I can go with is opinions, so I apologize for what I'm about to say.

It's my belief that God is an ideal that humans hold onto for support. Whenever we're going through hardships, it's God's plan, or God's wrath on the unjust. Whenever something good happens, it's God's grace. It's a cop-out for things that we can't explain or describe, which is perfectly acceptable considering the conditions: It keeps us sane and happy. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Saying "God did it" and answering the question of how with "we can't conceive it" may be logically unsound, but for the average man, that's okay. We don't NEED to know the truth, as long as a balance is kept. Without the idea of divine intervention, society falls into chaos. No more are we under the morals of religion, but the morals of mankind. With that in mind, I'm happy that the concept of God exists, whether it's real or not.

Having two younger siblings gave me many responsibilities growing up. We have a single mother who works often, so I grew up taking care of them - I knew how to change a diaper as soon as my brother was born, at age five. In that respect, I'm glad that they were around because I know how to take care of a family at seventeen. The responsibilities reflect in my academic performance and my everyday relationships - I don't make the stupid mistakes that most teenagers do because my lifestyle growing up forced me to contemplate how much my actions effect those around me.

However, I don't feel much affection for my siblings - I actually resent them quite a bit. In a way, they stole my care-free childhood from me. I never had many friends - three, tops - and was literally suicidal for a while because of stresses that a child shouldn't deal with. (Of course, many came from the things that I went through outside of taking care of them, but that didn't help.) Sure, they're my brother and sister - well, half-brother and half-sister - but I can't bring myself to feel much motherly or even sisterly love for them. The resentments are misguided, I know, because it's my mom's fault for putting the burdens on me and mine for accepting them, but I can't help it.

For those normally functioning households though, I feel that siblings are definitely beneficial to any individual. They can support or challenge you when you need it, respectively. I'd also imagine that they help you with social skills and a general understanding of the world around you. Maybe I have a romanticized view of it all because of how I was brought up, but I'd imagine that those relationships would definitely be good for you in the end. Sharing, interaction, responsibility, emotional support, and even rivalry are all very healthy aspects of relationships that most siblings share.

EDIT: Also, you might've given up 2 silver keys, but he just lost out on 2 gold keys. At least you had the opportunity to choose whther you want the keys or not. You made his choice for him.

What an interesting way to look at it. O: I never even considered that.

Honestly, being able to report someone for quitting is quite stupid in my opinion. I don't see why anyone would risk their account over one insignificant game. But goodness, the users brought it upon themselves! Yes, "don't punish the majority over the stupidity of the minority" but how else could TNT deal with such a problem? They probably never expected their users to throw hissyfits over losing a game that they'd get prizes from regardless - it's totally inconceivable. But, there are some surprisingly immature people on Neopets, even by, well... Neopets standards.

No, I don't quit, but I don't report people for quitting either. It seems underhanded even for ME, and though none of you know me, let me tell you, that's saying something. They threw a tantrum over losing a stupid game, but reporting would just be me throwing a tantrum over them throwing a tantrum, and if they DID get frozen or suspended or whatever over it, then they'd just throw another tantrum because I threw a tantrum because they threw a tantrum. It's just a stupid cycle that I refuse to take part of.

And by the way OP, regardless over whether they were being "mean" or not, it was still incredibly immature of you to quit on that user. I play that way too - if I don't feel comfortable about my position (which is quite often because random events hate me) then I play every negative powerup that I have on that person to keep them down. I use Rainbow Sticky Hands to steal Rainbow Sticky Hands! It's not an issue of meanness - even if it was, get over it? - it's an issue of being assured that you'll win. If you never even give your opponent a chance, then you're only more secure. Seems logical to me.

Honestly, I think that the problem lies with the users, as with most big sites accused of greediness. Members want to keep a nostalgic feeling about the site - they want to cling to what they're familiar with even if it's not of good quality. However, they still want MORE MORE MORE. They want more updates, more colors, more plots, more games, etc. They want to "have their cake and eat it too" and turn around complaining when the reality that they can't do that actually hits them. Without anything to place the blame on, they lash out at the staff because apparently the staff isn't living up to their expectations, when in fact reality itself can't live up to their expectations. The members THEMSELVES are being greedy in the fact that they want it all.

But that can't be helped, can it? Obviously not every member wants it all - some would trade anything to go back to the "golden days" when the site was ridden with bad art and glitches, while others would much rather stare a cold company in the face and buy their products. And, of course, there still lay the many who just quite frankly want it all with no compensation. However, as a whole, the userbase of Neopets is too polarized for anything to be executed well, much less perfectly. As a result, the staff is the group who looks bad, when they're trying their absolute hardest.

That's just the risk that they take though. They're not being greedy - they're surviving. It's evident that the staff members still largely enjoy their jobs because I can still see that fun childishness that I love about the site in all of the updates. But despite this quirkiness, you have to look at the fact that the staff is no longer a bunch of college students doing this for fun. Those days are gone and they'll never come back. People are living off of what Neopets pulls in, feeding their families and keeping roofs over their heads. While they're fun, they're willing to do just about anything that it takes to survive, and that does end up screwing the users over occasionally. Can we blame them? Absolutely not, because we'd do the same thing. People expect the staff to work as a well-oiled machine, but they're only human. They're doing a pretty good job of putting up that facade though, seeing as that's all that people consider them to be anymore.

I'm looking for a debate? I tend to come off strongly, which I addressed in my first post. That's done, and I don't care about who's feelings are hurt or who is simply making a comment - the OP mentioned that they don't apply themselves anyway, so obviously not everyone has a bruised ego.

"My writing style is very direct and one-on-one." <- Keep that in mind, I posted it before. I'm not here to make assumptions or put others down - that's a troll - I'm here to entice debate. I noticed that absolutely no one posted anything regarding the positives of petpage applications, so the Devil's Advocate seemed to be the perfect role.

Regardless, I just want a real response, which I'm not getting. That bothers me. I hate it when people disregard logical arguments with snide comments merely because they can't think of anything intelligible to retort. The purpose of a debate is to express both sides of the argument and think deeply about the subject as a result - harshness aside, I brought in a previously untouched argument which was only addressed later with an idea of, "How cute, you're making a big deal out of nothing." In all of the debates I've ever been in, that is never an acceptable response. Of COURSE it's going to rile me up - it's a fallacy, and I expect much more from a debate forum.

Let me make this much clear: I'm neither for nor against petpage applications. I adopt pets and zap them for others too, and I don't require petpages or ask for them. Actually, I've never received one and I've adopted off Ice, Faeries, and Robots - some highly sought after pets. However, I understand that petpages are sometimes the only way to truly express your desires for a pet, and that some may not have the best account, but have the best intentions and greatest desires for a pet. Allowing these applications puts everyone on fair ground - artistic people can use their talents and game-savvy people can show off their accounts. I find it ignorant and closed-minded for people to feel that it's "unfair" merely because they're not good at a certain art. If an owner doesn't want to accept petpage applications, so be it, but it's equally fine for someone else to accept them.

This is a debate forum, is it not? Or is something "not worth defending" only considered such when it differs from your point? Maybe your problem is that I completely destroyed any arguments against petpage applications with, oh, I don't know, logic, rather than some hurt feelings?

;) Don't think that you can use that superiority facade to deter me from the argument. I'm not afraid to prove you sore egos wrong, so unless you're going to actually debate rather than make snide comments in efforts to AVOID the debate, I'd suggest that you don't reply to my posts. Now, I'll let you try again - will you respond directly to my argument, or try to avoid it again?

Woah, woah, woah... You guys are making it seem like these owners are slaveholders, cracking their whips for the hell of it.

Have you forgotten that absolutely no one requires petpage applications because requiring them is against the rules in the first place? And that many people have so much to say that it can't possibly fit into a neomail? You're blowing it out of proportion.

Look, someone who codes/types/draws excessively probably wants that pet more than most other people. For goodness sakes, why not give it a shot yourself? I'm currently applying for my ultimate dream pet and I can't draw worth crap, but I'm giving it a shot. :/ You'll never know where you'll land until you give it a try. Get over your martyr attitude and realize that you're not out of the running before the race even starts. If you really can't do anything, use a premade or a template and suggest for the owner to look at your account rather than your talents. Explain your situation. Sitting back and complaining will get you nowhere.

On an end note, consider this: Someone who may go totally overboard with their application is just applying in the only way that they know how. It just wouldn't be fair to strip them of their only shot at a pet, now would it? Why don't you try to be an individual and create a gallery of books that you'll read to the pet? Or maybe gourmet foods that you'll feed it? Codestones, Dubloons, and Faeries that you'll train it with? Oh wait, is that too much work? If it is, then I'm sorry, but you just won't get it. It's only fair that the pet goes to the user that cares the most about it, and puts the most work into wowing the owner. It may put people on uneven ground, but that's just how it is sometimes. Suck it up and try harder next time.

Sorry for any personal offense. My writing style is very direct and one-on-one. I'm speaking generally, as I hate it when I see people complain when someone who put more work into something gets it because "it's not fair" - it IS fair, you're just upset.